In this episode of The Truth About Ag, co-hosts Kristjan Hebert and Evan Shout are joined by the renowned business woman, author, and investor, Arlene Dickinson. She shares how her early experiences with food insecurity shaped her thinking about food, business, and opportunity.
From growing up without reliable access to groceries to building one of Canada’s leading marketing firms, her path into agriculture was not linear, but it was intentional. Through her work in venture capital, she began to question why a country with such strong agricultural production was not creating more value from what it grows. That realization led her to invest directly in the agri-food and consumer packaged goods space, where she now has a front row seat to both the opportunities and the gaps in Canada’s system.
Dickinson challenges the idea that agriculture ends at the commodity level, pointing to the missed opportunity in processing, branding, and commercialization. She speaks to the need for better access to capital, stronger partnerships, and a willingness to think differently about how agricultural products move from field to shelf. At the same time, she highlights the importance of understanding markets, building products people actually want, and recognizing what skills are needed beyond primary production.
The Truth About Ag podcast is hosted by Evan Shout and Kristjan Hebert of Farmer Coach and Hebert Grain Ventures. Each episode aims to bring you closer to the heartbeat of agriculture through candid conversations and honest discussions.
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As I wait for my green chair and my green tractor to show up, another shout out to John Deere, our official sponsor of the Truth About Ag podcast. Ever wish all your farm data was in one place so you could eventually find it? That's where John Deere Operations Centre comes in. Available online 24. 7. Use it to plan, work, keep records and analyse results. That way you can reduce errors and make smarter decisions for next season. Plus, it's free to set up and try out see why thousands of farmers already trusted on their operations at John Deere. CA Precision Ag. Welcome to the truth about ag. Welcome back to the Truth About Egg podcast. Supported by the Hebert Group of companies and distributed through Real Agriculture Media Network. Remember to like, share, comment and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. All right, Feels like forever since we've done one of these. So I, I believe something's changed in the markets lately. I don't know, maybe a few bombs made some adjustments. So give me your, give me your take on, I guess the volatility and I guess the increase in prices on both fertiliser and grain we've seen in the last couple weeks.
Oh, well, I mean, I think if you, if you take people's pro formas from January 1, where sentiment, sentiment was break even or lower in a lot of cases, I think we're having a lot of conversations about insurance already triggering claims to, you know, not, not so much some of the special crops, but specifically canola, wheat. Use those two in specific. Soybeans, corn. The market's had a really good run here for the last 60 days, but 45 specifically to that, you know, that I would say we've seen pro formas move up to as much of 10 or 12% of total revenue. Right. Which is fantastic. Now, the downside is if you had bought your inputs and you were letting your revenue ride, your pro forma now looks pretty average or pretty good. And if you don't have inputs booked, I mean, oil and natural gas and fertiliser have had the same run, you know, and, you know, I hope for, for most producers they had a good portion of it, you know, positioned. But I mean, I was talking to a buddy in Australia last week and they're already limited on farm fuel, so he tried to get 45,000 litres, he could only get 8,000. So, you know, I also think so far in Canada, I think we're going to have access to fuel and fertiliser. I've heard some bad rumours on some nitrogen that can't even get a bid. But I don't know if that's, I don't think it's a supply issue. I think it's, they don't want to give you a bid because it's so volatile issue. But yeah, I mean that, it's, it's why we always look at gross margin. Right Evan? It's yield times price minus seed, fert and chem. And you have to look at that margin more than just revenue or just costs.
Well and I think on the gross margin side you probably saw a 30% shift in the last two weeks between the price of canola, I mean wheat slowly. Yeah, the pulses haven't moved yet. But I mean and then you take 50 bucks, you know, 50 bucks an acre probably on fertiliser increase and fuel, all of a sudden that gross margin number, there's a very large gap between what you could have done versus what you might have done. Right.
Well and I think it, I think it encourages people to really have a hard look at their plan. So once again this is Christian's personal opinion, but specifically on old crop, our prices that we're seeing right now have nothing to do with supply and demand. They have to do with the run up of oil. I mean to me canola is overpriced by 50 to 80 bucks a tonne simply because of oil and soil. On old crop, I mean new crop, this has put in some nice new highs. I think it gives us some pretty good upside on new crop. But that's all based on weather. So you know, I think it's. People really need to start looking at their gross margins on both old and new crop and considering, you know, consider getting some of those locked in. Even if it's just a little bit to help with your discussions with bank and going to sleep and everything else. Yeah.
So where's the, where's the crystal ball like mid summer? You buying fertiliser? These prices, are we looking at it going up or down?
No, I'm not buying fertiliser at these prices.
Okay.
That's my only caveat to that answer would be as if canola was 24 bucks a bushel and wheat was 14. Right. Because I mean close the hedgehog, we look at, we look at how many bushels of canola and or wheat does it take us to buy a tonne of each fertiliser, Nitrogen, phosphot ash and sulphur. So I'm more worried about the ratio of bushels to tonnes than I am the actual price of each of them. Now obviously I want to know the price of each of them too, but if I, if it's the right number of bushels of canola to buy an overpriced bites tonne of nitrogen, then we might have to have a look at it.
But yeah, the interesting other thing I've been hearing lately is obviously guys in the southern part of the province, not your side obviously, but that haven't grown a crop in a few, you know, years, are still timid on the marketing side. So what do you, what do you say to a producer who's going into year seven or eight of a drought and sees these prices and knows what they could make, but is still a little sceptical on whether Mother Nature is going to cooperate?
Yeah, I mean, we would encourage you to have a good look at the different insurance products out there and, and ensure that you can get bought out of some sort of a act of God or contract loss. Right. I also don't think from what I've seen, we haven't seen the run up on the special crops, you know, peas, lentils, chickpeas. Like we have the market crops yet, so I think they're on a bit of a delay anyway, but we probably will see a run. So it's just, you know, I was talking to a good friend here a couple weeks ago and he is in more of the dry zone and he actually has a policy of. Here's the percent of my crop insurance suction contract that I'm willing to sell before seeding. Here's the percent that I'm willing to sell by the middle of summer once I know my moisture right. And here's the percent once we're harvested. And I think every operation is a little bit different. Obviously for us we tend to be too wet, not too dry. So we, if we can, you know, if I feel that we can farm two years in one, from a profitability standpoint, we'll be super aggressively sold. Right. But, but we're also. Not too often do we lose a crop to drought. Like if we're going to lose some, it's to too wet or hail.
Okay, so I want to pull this, pull this into some of our conversations we've been having with the FIS lately. Obviously. So those farms that knew their cost of production pre bought or did the analysis to at least know that what they could have bought, have made the futures contracts have sold, have done everything correct. Why are the FI still treating them like every other farm attack?
Well, it goes back. I mean I talk about this 20 to 25 years ago, everyone in our industry tried to turn every farm into a contract number just like the wheat board permit book, so that there really didn't have to be a lot of relationships and every farm was the same and we, we don't have time to deal with everybody at the kitchen table. So this way it just comes in as 10104 is trying to do this. Now, as you have large management differentials from farm to farm, the industry is really struggling with how to deal with that. Whether that's how you stock and service parts and warranty at a dealership, to how as a retailer you deal with a farm that's as big as Your retail was 20 years ago and doesn't need agronomy, doesn't need your infrastructure, etc. What service do you provide? Two banks, you know, wanting someone that maybe is deciding whether or not you should buy a house mortgage, doing the same decision on your $50 million land mortgage or your $5 million fertiliser plan. Right. So all of us have to continue to help educate and those partnerships to work together. But what I would encourage bank management teams to look at is, you know, do you think a bank that only manages 6 or 7 billion should get the same terms as you do at 20, 30, 40, 50 billion just because your ratio is the same? Or do you think you should get better terms because you're a better manager and that's why you can handle a $30 billion portfolio versus a 6? And we already know that answer. And banks are working on the same terms when it comes to reserves in the world of management. And so the way we go back to it, Evan. Right. Is in the insurance days when we were doing lots of this standard deviation of gross margin and tightness of fixed costs is what really determines a farm manager. That's why we have a scorecard on it, right down from, you know, do you have wills and succession plans to how do you manage these things? And I believe as we move into the future with tech getting more involved, AI getting more involved, I mean, the gap has been getting wider between the top managers and the average manager for years. Kleinfelter brought it up, you know, 20 years ago, we bring it up now, and the speed of the widening of that gap is increasing. And so we're going to find out which partners are able to handle that and which ones aren't.
Yeah. And I think the big thing for the listeners is that it's not. Scale has nothing to do with it, guys. Scale helps get those processes in place. Don't get me wrong, the availability of people, the availability of processes. But in the end I've got lots of sub 3000 acre grain farms that still know their numbers to a T. And I mean we've had farmers walk into Maverick that have debt load and are still more risk mitigated and more, more managed than any other farm. So the complacency, I think debate has gone out the window as well, to be fair.
Absolutely. Yeah, for sure.
Okay, let's pull out of the numbers for a second. So you got, you got a vacation the last few days. How's Niagara?
Yeah, we were out there for some meetings with, with BSF's management team and some other farms. You know, it was good. You always, you meet lots of other operations doing interesting things. Actually didn't understand the Niagara wine industry quite as much and met a couple farms there doing that. So at 150,000 an acre and 375 an acre in order to replant and you're kind of relying on a ridge in Lake Ontario to manage your weather for you. So that was pretty interesting. But yeah, BSF's management team was there as well as their North American CEO. So lots of good questions around where technology's taken us. You know, how are generics going to fit in? How do, how is the pricing on label stuff going to work? You know, what are, what are progressive farms looking for? What's the industry looking for? We had, we had a guest presentation by Gary Marr the previous. He was the finance minister for Ralph Klein and held a number of spots. Super interesting on. He's had some really good meetings with Hoekstra, the ambassador to Canada from the U.S. um, so he's. I don't want to, I don't want to spoil it because I'm pretty sure we're going to have him on the podcast in a couple of months. But he's got some pretty good examples of how Trump runs his presidency, like a pro wrestling career. And so we'll talk about that in the future. But you know, it's always, it's always good to get in a group, get in a room of people that are, are thinking optimistically about the future and whether that be about their succession plan or what's going on in their operation or partnerships. Yeah, it's, it's usually a breath of fresh air.
So I know you took Teresa with you, but in the end, did you go as a consultant or a farmer to this one?
Yeah, no, I actually didn't talk too much. I was it. No it was like I said, lots of good operations. They did a thing on Speed of Trust, the Stephen Covey book. They brought in a consultant on that. That was really good actually. And yeah, and had lot. I had lots of good conversations with all the farms kind of on the side. You know, some really good comments on the podcast. And I always find it when they bring up certain things, like I had a good conversation on the discussion we had the other day on how I think there's opportunities on equipment on the lot for short term leases. And you know, my head was going more on how that could be a win win with the dealership help debt service on the farm by pulling the debt off, resets it for the dealership. And this person was like, yeah, but what if I bought use my expect expedited depreciation because I've got lots of my capital pool, but I got a tax problem, then I flip that two years later to a short term lease and I get more depreciation. I'm like, yeah, that as long as you got lots of your capital pool, that works too.
But like just now we're letting tax drive the bus.
Yeah. Different theories though. So it's always interesting how, how people take different comments and, and I'm always excited to know how a comment spurred an idea on how it would work for them. Right. Because some people assume when you and I talk, we just think our way is the right way, where I would argue that, no, we've just made a lot of mistakes and learned a few things and we think that sharing it, it'll spawn an idea that works for your operation. And so those are always my most exciting conversations is when it's. And it's an idea and they've taken half the idea and pivoted to what works really good for them. So I always like to hear the feedback on those. They make my day.
Well, to be fair, if we thought we were doing everything right, would I be spending my time sitting on a virtual screen with you right now recording? No.
Exactly. Exactly.
Okay, so one more question on that. Do you find those more uplifting and motivating, or do you find the meetings in Ottawa and the industry meetings more motivating? You like farmers, you like industry better these days. Insult them all while I got you on the call.
That's a hard question. I'll plead the fifth a little bit on this, but Evan knows me good enough. I enjoy meetings where I can ask good questions and I get asked good questions. And I feel that I left learning something I don't really care who they're with. And I've met with, you know, janitors that have taught me stuff. And I've met with people that own, you know, 15 Subway restaurants or a Mexican resort or a farmer that's taught me stuff. So my big thing actually is more is your mindset that we can always get better and what's a better way to do things. And I don't care if you're a CEO or a farmer, if you come in with an ego and that your way is the only way, I'm not going to enjoy it. Or a politician. Right. Where if we can kind of meet in the middle on ideas. Yeah, that part is exciting. The, the good one about this one was, you know, there was some operations there that are doing some cool stuff that isn't just farming. Like some of the not for profit ideas and some of the succession ideas and some of the stuff, you know, that we had good discussions around bringing in a non farm CEO or COO or cfo. And those conversations are always lots of fun. Right. That things are going good, but how do I make them go better? You know, what have you learned? What have I learned? I really enjoyed those ones.
Yeah. And that's led me right into where I wanted to go. So let's put it this way. I got a quote the other day and it was an Albert Einstein quote. We've all heard it a million times. And is the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again and believing we're going to get a different outcome? So our farmers insane these days? Are we, are we doing the same thing year over year, letting government, letting markets, letting everything dictated and assuming all of a sudden we're going to change the profitability on farms.
Yeah, you're just talking about just sheer kind of acre expansion if you're grain farming or head expansion if you're in cattle, 100%.
Because that's like you said, you're talking different things in these meetings. I want to know, are the normal farms sitting there just trying to put a square peg into a round hole every year?
Yep. Yeah. So I mean, I've always had the opinion if you're not growing, you're dying. Inflation's 3%. So if you're not doing something, you're actually going backwards on your equity. Now that growth can be in acres, that growth can be in revenue, that growth can be in land equity, there's lots of different ways to get it. Now I also, you know, I also kind of have this opinion now that I think we Need a fairly significant number. I don't know if it's 100 or 500 operations across the country to work their way to 100 million in revenue. And this kind of came out of some meetings a while back. And my reason for that is, and I respect all these big companies we deal with, but the fact of the matter is, is in agriculture in Canada, we deal with a lot of oligopolies. Like every branch we're part of, we got to got to deal with all these companies. And the bigger a few of our counterparts get, the more power they're going to have to negotiate. And hopefully that is in better for the industry and themselves, not just themselves. So I guess that's kind of my thing is this growth now, if you're just going to do it by acres and keep buying it just beats up debt service. If you're going to keep renting, it's hard on debt service because of equipment and it's more risky. So I think it's super important that as you grow, you diversify but into things you're good at. So do I think, you know, a grain farm should own two car dealerships and a grocery store and probably not unless you had someone in your family that was good at that stuff. Right now do some. Yes. But if you're going to keep it within and you're going to operate 80 to 100% of that business, we always kind of encourage you to look for ways to diversify to either decrease your cost of production or increase your revenue. So that could be custom work, that could be an elevator system, that could be, you know, finding a way to work with one of the big companies to solve a pain point for them. So is there a special crop they buy that they don't like running through their cleaners because they don't have the right stuff? Could you buy it, clean it and deliver it to them as a finished product to make their life easier? Right. Like in these partnerships. I think those are some important pieces to look at.
Well, I think the big discussion's coming around capital allocation, right. Like we are already in an industry that requires a significant amount of capital that we need a significant return in order to, as you said, debt service it or get any return whatsoever. All of a sudden the discussions are what can we invest in that's not going to require loads of debt? So no different than Maverick or pharmacoach. I mean a few laptops and some high labour costs. And we've created the consulting firm. There was no draw on loans. I mean There is no lending within Maverick right now. Can you, can you identify those to mitigate some of your risk instead of going into another capital intensive industry?
Right, but it, but it was a hundred percent driven by yours and my passion for finance risk and numbers.
100%.
Right. We didn't pick a business that was low, low on capital intensity that we didn't know anything about. No, not only, you know, did we have a pretty good background in it. It. It makes us excited working on it.
Yeah.
Right. Well, I think that.
And there's synergies between. I mean. Exactly. The data itself. I mean, I learned more from the guys at Farmer Coach than I probably bring more back to the farm than I take to them, to be honest.
Yeah.
And I mean, I'm very transparent with them. I said you guys are taking notes. So am I. I mean, they're in my head. That might not be taking them on paper, but to be fair that it's more of a sharing of ideas than it is just a straight mediation.
Right. 100%. But I mean, that's the whole point of being a coach, right? Good hockey coaches, good football coaches don't know everything. They pick and they pick and choose pieces from every single player to make every player better. Right? Yeah. No, exactly.
Didn't Belichick just pick Brady? I thought that was that easy. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, they're good at picking young girlfriends.
Okay, before I move any further, I got one thing to say.
Yeah.
Ovechkin is about to pass Gretzky on total goals and then we can all stop fighting. He's the greatest goal scorer of all time. And I'll move on from there.
Jeez. If he keeps going at it, we might be able to say he's the heaviest goal scorer of all time too.
Another 30 goal season. 20 in a row, baby. Okay, let's move on. We have Arlene Dickinson on the podcast next. And it was. I am excited to let everyone hear this one. It was a good one. Someone way outside the box of anybody I thought we'd ever interview to be fair. So I hope those listening enjoy and remember, like, share, comment, subscribe and leave us some comments, good or bad. I'm getting bored. There's nothing coming out on this, so. And that's the Truth About Egg. Before we get to our guest here on the Truth About Egg, another quick shout out for John Deere. Ever wish all your farm data was in one place? That's John Deere Operations Centre. Plan, work, keep records, analyse results. All online. Free to set up, see why thousands of farmers trust it@johndeer CA PrecisionEgg. Okay, welcome back. This one is. This one's an interesting one for us, Hebes, because I'm gonna be open with you. Before about a month ago, Arlene, and I call this ignorant Saskatchewan boy, but I didn't even realise how involved in agriculture you actually were. So we have Arlene Dickinson on today, and my biggest one is give me the history. And I guess how not only from your past, and we know some of the grit and stuff that you went through and the companies you own, and obviously everybody here is going to know you from dragons then, but give us that precursor and then how you got involved in the agriculture sector, to be fair.
Yeah, I mean, I think they're all kind of connected. I. We grew up, we were immigrants to Canada. So I came here when I was about 3 years old from South Africa. And, you know, we came to the country like most immigrants without, you know, really any. Any money to our name at all and had to kind of figure out how to survive. And one of the things that I went through as a child and growing up was food insecurity. You know, we. We didn't have the ability to just go to the grocery store whenever we wanted to go to the grocery store. And so I really grew up understanding what it was like to go to school hungry and what it was like to wonder what, you know, when you could go to get the groceries again. And it wasn't like a. Just a given that you go to the grocery store whenever you needed food. It was, you go to the grocery store when you could afford to go to the grocery store, which wasn't frequently. So growing up that way was actually. It taught me, you know, how to cook. I mean, I try to look at the positives of things, you know, like, it taught me how to make something out of nothing. You know, like, give me two pieces of bread and some butter and sugar, I'll make a sandwich. Probably not that healthy, but. But I. I learned how to, you know, be frugal in my cooking and my baking and how to make things for nothing. And then when, later on when I got married, we again were very broke and so had to grow our own food. So I was, you know, big into gardening and canning and freezing and doing all of those things, because that was how we survived. I made bread every night. We couldn't afford to go and buy bread, even though back then it was 10 loaves for a dollar, you know. Now. Now, yeah. Hard to believe, right? When it went on sale. But now, you know, even then we couldn't afford it. So I would bake bread and buns every night, literally. And so it was something just until my, you know, into my adulthood that I really recognise the importance of food and the value of food. And then, and then after that it was, it was really the show that, you know, so that was my, you know, background, which was not always having access to good food and food at all. And then when I went on the show, after I'd had some success in life and business, I, you know, I started to see all these food companies come on that were great companies and everybody was saying, oh, they're never going to make it. They're going to get squashed by the big packaged goods companies and they'll never survive. And I just didn't buy into that because I kept thinking, this doesn't make sense. You know, Canada is such a large agricultural nation. We have so many good ingredients. You know, 20% of the world's water is here. We grow fresh, good produce, we grow, you know, canola and grains and cereals and you name it. And why aren't we creating that last mile of value and commercialization, which is what we would see. We would see people coming on with finished products. And so I thought there's gotta be a fund out there that invests in the food space. Cause I don't believe that these companies aren't going to survive and they're not going to make it just simply because they're not big. And I couldn't find one. And I thought, well, that's crazy. Like what are we talking about? We should be exporting all these, you know, these goods from here because we can make a lot of money as a country. And so then I decided to start a fund to, you know, only because I couldn't find one. So I decided to go and raise capital and, and invest in the space. And since then, you know, we, we managed about $170 million and we invest in the ag and food and health and wellness CPG space. And it's been, it's just been a real front row seat to what's going on in the agri foods sector and the wealth and, sorry, the health sector in Canada.
So I guess for me, he, don't get me wrong, she went from, she went from not eating to right into the bit creating a fund. So I want to at least pull you back a little bit, give me some of the storey. I mean, I know you started at venture communications at 31, how like as an entre from the entrepreneur side, before we pull you down into agriculture, how did you, how did you approach that and how did you grow to get to where you are today? Because I mean, that's, that's where I want to take some of it is. Just how did you build that empire to be, to be fair?
Yeah, listen. When I joined Venture, I was asked to be a part. The firm was very small at the time and I got invited to join as a partner, but it was only as sweat equity, you know, like they couldn't afford to pay me so they said, listen, you can come and work as a partner. And at that time I really had no choice. I'd been fired from my job at the TV station. I didn't have a job. I had four little kids that I had joint custody of with my ex husband. And I didn't know how I was going to pay the bills. And so this was a door that opened and it was literally okay, I, you know, I'm going to walk through that door. And so I walked through that door because I was actually decent at marketing. And having worked in the television business for a couple of years and in the PR business for a couple of years in very low level jobs, I started to recognise that I was good at marketing because I was very good at listening. And I was very good at listening because I'd grown up in a very dysfunctional family. And so I became that quiet kid that listened to the debates that were going on. And as a result of that, that and being very absorbed in reading, I read a lot. Like I would read three books a week all the time. And so I was a reader, I was a quiet kid, I was an observer. I loved pop culture. I was very insecure and shy, but I really enjoyed the world around me and I got an escape through books. And so all of that kind of led to me being a good marketer because I think I just found something that I understood. I understood people, I understood, you know, people's dreams and people's aspirations, which is really what entrepreneurs entrepreneurialism is all about. And I jumped into joining Venture as a partner. Didn't get paid, use my credit cards, used my debt, everything I could to survive for the first couple years is pretty bad. We did everything that, you know, on the show we always say to people, oh my God, you know, you use your credit cards and you, you mortgage your home and you did, we did all of those things. Or I, you know, like I, it was like, you know, you didn't know if your cheques were going to make it like it was bad, it was really bad. But again, that taught me a perseverance and a, and a scrappiness and a understanding of what it's like to build a business. And. And then after a few years of success, you know, we were running a company. It wasn't a big company, but it was like 20, 25 people and my partners were kind of, they were older than me and they were always fighting and I decided I wanted to build it. I found that I liked being an entrepreneur and I was decent at it and I had a lot of ambition and a lot of energy and I loved the marketing space. I loved it because you could spend your days helping other people succeed and that really got me going. I loved being kind of behind the scenes because you could help a business and you could help an entrepreneur's dream become a reality or you could stop their pain. Which is, by the way, I think the only two reasons anybody ever hires an agency is make it stop my pain or make me build my dream. And so I decided that I was going to buy them out and so ended up, couldn't. Got turned down by the bank, couldn't raise the capital. So use working capital. Convinced the guys to sell it to me, you know, through working capital and use that. And again did everything that you should not supposed to do. I did and ended up buying up my partners and then running it from there.
No, sounds like.
Yeah, go ahead.
It's a 30 year storey, condensed to three.
Oh, no. I like it because it essentially puts everything in agriculture. Right. We mortgage everything on sweat equity and
hope it comes in the. Yeah. And you hope that it's gonna, you hope it's gonna grow, harvest it.
Go ahead.
And I think too on our consulting side or on the farm, I mean my, my favourite people on this earth are one, curious and two, want to help themselves. Right. And that mindset of I want to be better and whether that is help me build my dream or get rid of the pain, those are both options to get better. Right. And it's addicting to be around people like that. Whether their net worth is negative 100,000 or it's 100 million, people that are curious and want to be better are just addicting to be around.
Yeah, I, I love that. I mean, curiosity to me, I think when you're an immigrant, you have to be curious. You, you have to wonder how things are done and why they're done the way they are. You won't survive if you're not Curious. Right? You've got to kind of. Okay, I better figure this out quickly. Like, what. How this all works. So I think, you know, curiosity is, to me, a foundation of lifelong learning. You need to stay curious. And a lot of people aren't. They think they know everything and they don't ever ask questions. They don't ever think they have anything to learn. And that's. You really stop yourself.
Well, I think the curious. I mean it. You're also a pretty big, you know, advocate for. For mental health and the toll that being a leader can be and it's lonely at the top. And. And I. It's part of my personal opinion that that curiousness can really help with that. It's curiousness on how to get better, how to ask somebody, you know, how they're dealing with it. So do you want to maybe make some comments around how you yourself. But then also some of the best entrepreneurs you've seen have been able to deal with that toll. The best.
Yeah. I mean, I haven't always dealt with it well, Christian. I'd say, like, it's been. It's been. It's. I. I've struggled with. When I. In fact, when I turned 60, I started to get panic attacks at the age of 60. And I was. And I. At to that point, I had very little tolerance, I would say, for people that would tell me they had panic attacks, because I would go, come on, you got everything going for you. Like, why are you having a panic attack? How. You know, like, can't be that bad and you can certainly control it. And then I got them and I think this was, you know, probably karma's a right. Like. And then I started to get it. I go, oh, that's why they. Because it has this stress building up. It's. It's years. It could be years of stress building up that demonstrate themselves in that way. So panic attacks. When I turned 60, prior to then going through my second divorce depression, I went through depression. I. I've had. I've had, you know, I've had my fair share of mental health challenges. There's. There's days that are pretty dark and there's days that are really bright and. And it's. I think I'm just fortunate because I tend to be a cup half full. I can kind of get myself there. I can convince myself that things are going to be okay. But I have a lot of empathy for people who get stuck in depression and can't see their way through it because it can be overwhelming. It is a demon and it is a very dark demon and it can be very hard to, you know, you do need help and you do need to, you know, sort through it. So entrepreneurs. So when you're alone and you're dealing with that, you have nobody to talk to, which is why professional help is so important. Or peer group help, where you can at least talk to somebody who understands what you're going through and can empathise with it.
Well, I think we push that a lot. He on this side is you look at someone like Arlene and that. That's the furthest thing from your mind. Right. We see the success, we see on tv, we see that stuff. The mental health side never really even comes in, as it could be an issue where I think we've got the same thing in agriculture. I mean, the mental health statistics in primary production. Ag is terrible, to be honest. And part of it is, like you said, you're alone, you're on your own, you're all. Most of our guys are entrepreneurs, whether they see themselves as that or not. They build businesses. Right. So it ties very similar. Right?
Yeah. And, you know, you think about farmers and you think about producers, and again, a lot of time alone out in the field on the tractor, on the. On the, you know, on the combine, doing what you need to do in the field, like early, from morning till late at night, figuring out whether or not, you know, God's going to send you rain that day, or whether you're going to have, you know, like, enough, you know, the growing conditions are going to be right. Like, there's a lot of pressure that I think the average Canadian doesn't really consider. When they. They go to the store, they get their food, they just think it was easy. They don't understand that that wheat had to survive a lot of challenges to get to the mill, to get made into flour that they could then buy. And. And I think the connection between us and the earth and our food supply is so important and we need to do a better job of helping people understand how fragile it is, but also in Canada, how sturdy it is, and that's because the farmer is both fragile and sturdy. And, you know, it's interesting.
I mean, I always say that fierce independence is one of the biggest or best qualities of entrepreneurs and farmers, but it's also their biggest pitfall because they feel that they can't talk to anybody and that they got to fix it themselves. Right. And whether that's a farmer, an entrepreneur, they're both bad for it because they're problem solvers. And so when they have their own problem, they spend their whole life letting everybody come to them and they don't have that person to go to. So we always kind of encourage, you know, friends and clients, etc. Like, make sure you've got four or five people on your list that. I always watch that one Simon Sinek video, I think it's. He calls it seven minutes, where him and his friend text each other. And if they text seven minutes, that means is I just need seven minutes of your time to realise the glass is half full. And who are those people? We don't do that early enough in our life to figure out who are your glass half full people.
Yeah, well, I mean, I lived in a rural town for a long time when I was raising my kids and worked with farm associations and farmers in a fairly major way. And I never met a farmer who was really good at asking for help. They were really good at offering it, though. They were really good at supporting their neighbours and their, you know, like, if somebody, you know, equipment was down or somebody needed something, you guys are there. Like you're there. But, you know, you're the last people to say, hey, I need help, like myself.
Right, yeah, no, I agree. I think I agree with you completely on the consumer and food security and that as the security conversations increase in the world, period, I think not only is it obviously a little bit nervous for everybody, but it's a huge opportunity for Canada in Canadian food security, but in global food security. So I guess I would ask you, what are your ideas on how we do a better job of bridging the gap, one between the consumer and the farmer and understanding the importance and what gets done. But then I think secondly for our crowd that's mainly producers, I'd also like to bridge the gap to be like, just because you're a farmer doesn't mean you only grow commodities. There are probably opportunities to, to vertically integrate and partner and collaborate with CPG companies because your brand as the farm is actually really good for a CPG company. And so how do you, how do we bridge that gap too?
I mean, honestly, I didn't do this on purpose, but like, this is a company I invested in and it's, its name is Three Farmers, you know, and it's got the, it's got the farm and the tractor and it's, it talks and it's got the farmer storey on the back. I mean, there is, yes, buy this, but it's a great product. But it did come from farmers who, you know, who looked at their second generation daughters and said, you know, why don't you do something with, you know, the commodities that we're growing? And they did and they've been very successful at it and it and it and I think integrated operations where you go from farm to production. There's so much opportunity, like so much opportunity. And I think, you know, I'm guessing that farmers aren't that risk friendly for the most part, which is kind of odd because every day you're taking a risk with it, with your crops or your, or your animals or your, you know, whatever it is you're, you're growing. But they're, they're. The risk to me is in not doing it. You know, as a farmer, especially in today's world where margins are squeezed, you're making that the commodity price instead of the value added price that you could be getting the margins going elsewhere to the distributors, to the mills, to the processors, to, you know, there's so many hands in the jar to get it to a product that can actually get on shelf that I think farmers should, as a community should be taking much more advantage of creating production right on their, right in there, right in their backyards.
Well, it's funny, he's like, like we said, the risk thing scares, scares a lot of farms away from making that jump. But they are essentially, we call them gamblers every day, right?
Every day.
And, and the big, the big thing for me is when we start talking that way of the value add and stuff and we do have some farms that are moving into those value add spaces to get capital and the type of private investment, obviously that you're involved in something that it takes a pitch or it takes, you know, it takes that sales, sales of what it looks like. So from a agriculture perspective, and I'm a producer and I'm coming to you with a product. What, what are you looking for from farms when they, when they try to get into those spaces?
I guess, you know, certainly we're looking for people who have, there's, there's something about their product that is unique, that is, you know, the market is looking for, I mean you're looking for product market fit. You want to make sure that what's being produced is something the market's actually cares about and wants and, and you're looking for the right unit economics. Can you make money at this when by the time you, you know, produce it? But you're, I say beyond that, you're looking for people who know what they don't know and people who are confident with what they do know, and I'd say in the case of farmers, where you're very confident in built and growing the product or raising the animals or milking the cows or, you know, whatever it is that you're doing, there's a confidence in that. But, you know, the, they would need to, I would say suggest, probably need to partner with somebody or look inside of their generational wealth that they have. And I've been literally their generational wealth, which is their family, not their generational wealth, which is their capital, and, and see if in their family there's somebody who wants to work with them. We, we're working right now with a group that is a very, very old organisation. They've been, you know, they've been working on the farm for a long time and their, their next generation is innovating and finding new ways to find products. So I say we are looking for that. We're looking for people who recognise what they don't know and know how to surround themselves with people who are going to bring value, just like they're going to add value.
I think that's the problem in agriculture is that they are risk takers at what they're comfortable with, which is growing crops and raising animals and, and you know, that whatever insurances are there to cover that. What, what they're not super good at is this fierce independence and the theory of partnerships and collaboration and unique ways to access capital. I mean, it's not taught in agriculture, to be honest. It's not even taught in our society. Right. If you're a T4 person, you borrow money for your house, you borrow money for your car and you save money and then you retire. And if you're in agriculture, you borrow money to buy land and you borrow money to buy equipment and you run a little bit operating credit. But this theory of, hey, I have the commodity and there's someone with a really good amount of knowledge to make this into a commercial good. I should partner with them in a 50, 50 joint venture. I've got some capital in the raw product, they've got the marketing and the know on how, on how to do it and we could have a great brand. It's, it's a struggle in agriculture to open minds, to partnerships number one and, and unique forms of capital, number two.
Yeah, well, I mean, I would say to anybody listening, you know, like, listen, FCC does an incredible job of supporting the agriculture, agri, food, agritech community. I mean, they, they really, I have nothing but time for the management team. They're the Senior, you know, from Justine on down. And I could name, you know, Doug, Darren, I can go down the list. There's so, so many really seasoned professionals who have not just the mandate to support the community, but the heart and the desire to support the community and are really to push the agenda. So I would say SEC is a wonderful partner, edc, when you want to export your product, another wonderful partner to help you export your product around the world through Trade Commission offices and through what they can do with their own resources and their own capital. Then you've got like, you know, Protein Industries Canada, which is in Saskatchewan, which is doing a great job in terms of helping, you know, you think about the protein that's in chickpeas and lentils and fava beans and, you know, go down that list and, and say, you know, what can we make with these products? So you've got Protein Industry Canada, which is also there to help fund and support. You've got, you know, organisations like my accelerator programme, which is a not for profit, that has helped, you know, close to 300 businesses to go from idea to, you know, execution. And so there are, there are reasons. And then I would add to that the universities, you know, University of Guelph and others, where they have huge R and D departments and innovation labs that you can go and say, I have this raw good. What can I make with it? And they will work with you and they will help you figure out what is possible. So you do need to look, there is a very ready ecosystem. It isn't really well coordinated yet because people haven't really tapped into it the way they should. But I think that's changing real time right now because of the need in the world for what we have.
Well, it's funny because like I said, we always go straight to capital, right? Whether it's the banking industry, whether it's the private investment industry. I've never heard it put from that direction of the educational, the using universities for R D and stuff. I've never seen that side of the discussion when it comes to value add, to be fair.
Yeah. I mean, there's leduc, there's a facility in leduc that does. There's lots of. There is lots of support out there. You just have to kind of look around and try and get it. And then there's funds like mine that, you know, with venture capital and other funds that invest in the space, there is capital available, but there isn't enough capital, enough growth capital available. So when you get to a certain size, Canada could do a better Job of having growth capital.
I mean we're a bit jaded, right? Shout. I mean I spent fair bit of time kind of doing consulting to ag tech startups in San Fran when it was doing the big boom and got to meet and visit with a whole bunch of smart people. I mean I tell the storey all the time that Marc Andreessen grew up on a dairy farm in Wisconsin, made Netscape in his dorm room and actually quite loves agriculture and food. It's just not a lot of the opportunities necessarily get to, whether it be your fund or his fund, they maybe don't think big enough. Right. And we've raised money for emmertech in Saskatchewan and it's raising number two. And I agree with you, I think part of it is the innovation and the drive to go meet with the funds when you have a startup product. And then I think the whole is that the growth capital to go from 1 to 10 million in revenue to 100 to 250 million in revenue. And I mean Canada, we, we got a productivity problem. Our, our economists have all said it and, and so if you want to fix productivity, let's 10x some of the best entrepreneurs in the country. But we just got to, we got to encourage the agriculture and food ones to put up their hand, show us who they are and then encourage them to be 10x.
Yeah, I think you can go from 1 to 10 relatively. I think, you know, you can find the resources and the, and the opportunity. It's, it's getting, like you just said, like from 10 to 50 and 50 to 100 in AGS is really difficult. It's not because there's no market, it's because there's just not enough capital. So it's changing. As I said, I'm hopeful about the future for agri food and agritech and agriculture in Canada.
So my question to you is, I know your travel schedule is very hectic based on where I see all the places you're at, especially on social. But when we talk about that and you visit these places, what does it look like from the Made in Canada brand? Are we seen as the agri food agriculture side of it or what's our reputation? I guess outside of the walls of Canada, to be fair,
you know, I, I've, in the last six months I've been to Hong Kong, Japan, Thailand, Philippines and Singapore. So I've, I've, I've travelled a lot and it's been very enlightening for me to understand exactly what you're asking. So I would say Canada in, in general is very well respected. Like I, I was, I was really heartened to hear how much every nation really has respect and, and belief that we are reliable, trustworthy partner and that our raw goods are of the best quality. So for as a commodity nation we are well known. So when I think on the agriculture commodity side we're understood. On the agri food side we are not well understood. And there's so much opportunity again there to position the things that we produce in these nations which have billions of consumers in them, to talk about the fact that things are produced, grown, processed and manufactured in Canada. So we need to do a better job of grown here, made here and helping people understand that a Canadian product is as good if not, you know, as the raw grids that went into it. So there's some work to do there still.
What, what do you see as some of the biggest opportunities? So I, same thing, travelled not so much in this last year or two, but a couple years ago spent some time in the UAE at the COP conference talking to a bunch of companies there about agriculture. And the one thing I always try to figure out is what do each country want? So sometimes we just assume, hey wheat, all our wheat should get processed just like our canola, because canola is the wonder child of Canada of what we do with oil and meal. But I think sometimes we maybe don't spend enough time talking to all the other countries who are the cheque writers, the buyers to say what are the value added products you guys want the most and invest in what your consumer and your, and your cheque writer wants.
Yeah, on, on the commodity side I think we're doing a better job of, of, of matching what the need is to the supply we have. But just like any product you do, it is a supply demand question. And, and I hear it a lot here. People say Asia, like, like Asia is all one thing. Well, Asia is not all one thing. Each of these nations that I mentioned previously are very, very different. They have, they are made up of different cultures, different taste preferences, different warehouse and distribution abilities, capabilities. So you really do need to research the market. But that's true if you want to go, if you want to sell in Texas versus selling in California. I mean these are very different markets with very different consumers with very different, you know, taste preferences and et cetera. So you have to understand what is it I'm selling. And, and then you need to do the research about what is, you know, who could take this instead of saying I'm going to sell to all Asia. You know what, I have something that Japan will love because it's, it's got these, you know, elements that Japanese people really like to consume. Or this is more of an Asian Thai flavour. So I'm going to go to Thailand. So. And you also have to be willing to take your product and change your flavour profiles to match what the demand is too. Not always, but sometimes, sometimes they want Canadian. Like in Hong Kong, I think there's 300,000 Canadians living there. That's big, that's a, a lot of people, you know, that would love to buy Canadian product there if they could find one.
So I think the other, the other question I have that ties back into the travel and all that is what do you like from an agriculture perspective, primary producer perspective, what are the trends that we should be paying attention to? I mean you see kind of what these countries are looking at, whether it's the sustainability side or the regenerative or plant based. Like what, where do you see that pushing the agriculture, primary producer industry going forward?
Yeah, we have such a propensity in North America to think that everything we're going through is what the rest of the world is going through. And you know, like, you know, and I mean here in North America, what is it? It's protein, it's creatine, it's hydration, it's fibre, it's low sugar, like that. And you see that in like every product, you know, like calling out its protein level and its fibre levels and et cetera, which in some respects is very true around the globe too. But don't forget a lot of these countries already are very used to eating plant based diets. A lot of these cultures are, you know, whether, whether they don't think about it the same way. So and they, and they don't they already getting their protein from different sources because animal protein isn't as readily available in many of these nations. So you know, there, you just have to understand that. But I think the trends truly, you know, like, you know, whether it's seafood, whether it's animal protein, whether it's plant protein, making sure that we can just feed people with healthy products that are going to keep them sustained and, and, and healthy to the point that they're not putting pressure on the health care systems in each of the nations. So you know, this notion of food as health is really evolving and you know, I've been talking to a lot of people lately about this idea that at some point you're going to see prescriptions done for food because you know, really, food is, it is, it is our health. It is going to cure us of so many of the things and the diseases and the mal and the, and the challenges we have with our, our bodies. And so I think this is a growing trend. I'm hearing it more and more where people are talking about everything I consume has got to be functional, it's got to help my body because it's going to make me live longer. So longevity is a big deal. You know, like food is health is a big deal. Thinking about, you know, protein in a different way in terms of how you're getting your protein and how you can consume your protein and then, you know, hydration. Because as, as water becomes more and more scarce, as good health, you know, good, good, healthy water becomes more and more scarce, this is going to become an increasing area of concern. So food security, when we talk, when all these nations talk about food security being one of their number one challenges for the future, they're not just talking about having stockpiles of canola or chickpeas sitting in a warehouse somewhere. They're talking about having goods that they're citizens can eat. And so this is a trend, like getting to finished products is going to become more and more important.
Well, and we're seeing it, Christian, on the, like, the food guide even flipping. Right. Which I don't think many of us expected to just do a full 180, but now we're seeing the protein side take more of the. More of the height.
Right, Right. Well, I think, I mean, Arlene said it already, but it's pandemics, etc. Aren't that fun to go through. But they do help sometimes align priorities. And so the one thing that positive that came out of it was food security and how important food is. And are we looking at food correctly for the globe? Because in North America we're pretty selfish, right? Like, not very often do you go to a grocery store and not have something on the shelf.
So I have a view on that. Just to be a little contrary to what you're saying. Perfect.
I want it.
I think. Did we really learn from COVID You know, like, have things really changed? Right. Like, I wish that was true. I wish that we had gone, oh, my God. We cannot find ourselves in a place again where we are worried about our supply chain breaking down to the point where we can't get the food we need to feed ourselves. But did we do anything about it? So we recognise that it can happen, but it's quickly gone in our memories to. No, everything's fine again. And so, you know, I don't know that we have done enough. And again, back to the producers that are listening to your show. This is the moment in time to step up and try and do something more with your raw goods so that you can make sure and be part of the solution so that people can get fed. Because people cannot eat raw grains, they cannot eat raw cereals, they cannot eat, you know, they, the cows need, you know, the animals need to be slaughtered. The, you know, we need, we need that whole chain of things to happen. And, and I, I, I, it, it worries me with what's going on in the world right now. It really worries me that we haven't learned the lesson and that we are still as vulnerable. Hopefully, that's changing. As, you know, our Prime Minister goes around and makes great trade deals around the world, but those trade deals are only good if we actually do something with those trade deals, you know, and actually start to do business together.
I was in Ottawa. I go to Ottawa once a week or once a year for a week to literally just talk about agriculture with a bunch of the ministers, deputy ministers, think tanks, et cetera. And there was a couple pieces that I thought came out this year. One was, I've never heard the words productivity and resilience more in Ottawa. So it was like, I really enjoy the mindset shift. Two, got to have lunch with a group of people with the Prime Minister's wife. Didn't realise she was so educated in ag economics. She's got a master's in agriculture economics and really does care about food and agriculture. But three, that was kind of my, I mean, kind of the comment back to a lot of the groups was like, I really like what we're all talking about, but what are we gonna do about it? Right? Because I agree with you that, you know, when I say Covid showed us something, it was more how the grocery store shelves were empty and we saw it could happen. But I don't disagree with you that have we made any, you know, significant investments in our supply chain, even in Canada, and what can disrupt our supply chain to get it to the rest of the world, let alone the rest of the world. Well, we've talked about it. So it's, it's the next. I'm the same as you. I think the next 24 months specifically is we have a lot of opportunity and there's good momentum. But are we, are we going to actually have much for action is still the part that we all, we all want to see and we all have
to be part of, well, and we get caught in that cycle of, you know, the entrepreneur or the farmer blames the, you know, government and the government blames the entrepreneur and the farmer. And at the end of the day, nothing happens. If the regulatory frameworks don't keep up with what we're trying to do here and our policies don't change, we have to, we have to stop the, you know, from transportation through to packaging through to, you know, through to the regulatory frameworks around whether it's, you know, whether it's approvals on getting exportable, you know, goods exported, etc. Etc. You know, Health Canada, CFIA, lots of regulatory challenges. Now I like some of those regulatory frameworks because they make sure that our food supply is safe, they make sure that we're getting, you know, good goods, but they have become antiquated and they have become ineffective. And so maybe that's, you know, like, I'm sorry, I'm not being very direct here, but I really, I, I feel like if we don't talk about these things and call them out and say, let's just change them together, like, again, I don't care whose fault it is anymore. I just want to change it. I just want to make it better. I just want government to listen. I just want entrepreneurs to be, you know, motivated. And so I think this is something that we have to now focus on, which is, you can't blame, you can't say to entrepreneurs, take the risk if you're not prepared to take the roadblocks out of their way. And so it's both sides.
Well, and I think we've said that before is even within agriculture, entrepreneurs can't get along. I mean, we've got a livestock group that doesn't agree with grain growers and grain growers don't serve supply. So I mean, we take an $89 billion industry and we segment it and fragment it so small and then we want government to listen to each one. When we have 300 different lobby groups,
like, it doesn't work a thousand percent, Evan. Like a thousand. I so agree with you. Like, everybody's lobbying for their own individ, you know, groups and, and what they need to do is think about it from a sector perspective and, and understand that when we can get these things solved because we're all facing the same challenges just in a different, it's just a different shade of the same colour. And so, yeah, I'm with you. Maybe somebody listen to, maybe someone's going to hear this and go, hey, we need to, we need to do all these things.
I'm all for hope, Arlene, but I'm not going to hold my breath on it. Let's put it that way.
Way.
I hope it was one of our big pushes was for both PMRA and CFIA to be moved under agriculture with a health lens. Because I think it's just the rules of the game is that we want healthy food and we want the right rules in place. And I don't blame health in any way. What I'm saying is that health is an extremely big cabinet with a lot of stuff going on. So how do we get the regulation reform required in PMRA and CFIA to be a priority when they have 10 million other things to do? Right? So we said to both the Deputy Health Minister and then the Ag Minster, like, why don't we get these things moved under teeth agriculture and actually try some of these sandboxes out where perhaps if a country we trust the science and the regulation in has already approved this, we have a very quick approval system for a trial on a new product or a new consumer. Good. Why do we, why do we have to reinvent the wheel and have it take another five years?
Like, I think, yeah, I totally like. Pharmaceuticals are very different. They, I mean, there's just, there's, yeah, I, I 100 double cheque. Mark, I would stand in line behind you when you said that and I would be saying what he said is right, you know, because I completely agree. Maybe if enough of us keep saying
it, they're gonna hear it's gonna be louder. Right? We just gotta be the small percent that's loud now. Honestly, you're within marketing, right? So we're sitting here saying that we're talking to the producers and getting your storey out and all that. Well, we are, we are in one of the worst industries for people to actually self sell themselves. So I mean, how do you, how do you see the fix on that? When primary producers, as we call them, rugged individualists, they like being alone, they don't like jumping on social, or at least most don't like jumping on social. How do you, how do you get an industry that's built on humbleness and being quiet to actually yell from the rooftops, hey, we've, we've got food, we're open for business, we're safe. Like, what's the solve?
Well, you know, the number one thing people look for nowadays in a marketing sense is authenticity. And I don't know any more authentic group of people than producers are. These are down to earth. People who literally live with the earth every day and live, you know, live, work with their hands and, you know, and. And have to, you know, persevere through hardships and conditions that they have no control over. And so that authenticity is something to amplify. And when. When you see it kind of amplified in a Sally kind of way, when you see some of them try to do big, glitzy campaigns and it feels like it's not authentic, it loses its voice. But when you see true. A true voice coming through, it's funny. I hate to use a us example, but I'm going to. You know, Kate. Kate Hudson just did a spot for the marketing spot for the 28 Summer Olympics. Have you guys seen it?
I haven't, no.
When you think of Kate Hudson, you think about the fact that she's from California. She is like. She epitomises that blonde, beautiful, free spirit, you know, like bohemian type of California girl, Right? And so they have her singing California Girl. California Dreaming. Sorry. And so she's singing California Dreaming. You see the imagery of her. And it cuts constantly to the imagery of the athletes who are performing summer sports. So whether they're doing hurdles, whether they're doing racing, whether. Whatever they're doing, it's a summer sport. And they. You see all this. This montage of athletes and you hear her singing California Dreaming. You know why it's believable? Because everybody looks at her as the California girl. Everybody says that's real, that's a. That that is who she is. Like, she's not singing a song about something. She doesn't live. That's what she lives. That's who she is. And so it can still be marketing. My point is you can still do marketing on a grand scale and still. And keep it authentic by staying true to the voice that you're trying to portray. And so I think that's a. I would say to those farmers and producers that don't want to get out there, the world has changed and your voice matters now more than ever. And people really do need to hear from you and they need to get closer to our, you know, how. Where their food comes from. They need to understand it. And nobody's going to tell the storey better than you. And I say I use that US example. But I can talk to you about. I follow a bunch of accounts on. On my Instagram of farmer, like people who talk about farming. There's a guy who does potatoes and talks and the guy who does, like, carrots and they. And it's Fascinating because they're just showing what they're doing every. And they're not having fancy edited this or that. They're just, they're just sharing and it's so beautiful because the food is so beautiful and their intention is so beautiful and they're just honest. So do it. Your voice matters. Your voice really matters.
I think Evan, my favourite one is like the God Made a farmer video. Could have been horrible, but they picked Paul Harvey's voice, right. Which has been on every small farm rural radio station in history. It hit home more than maybe any commercial about agriculture and history. Right. And when it comes to voice, I mean, I think it's two pronged too. Right. Farms need to understand that if you're, if you're putting your voice out there, it can be for a number of reasons. One, educate consumers, great. But it's to have a conversation with consumers, understand what their point of view is too. Two, your brand is what helps you find people. Like you don't have a good business if you don't have. I always say you need time, brains and money to have a good business. Right. Time is yours or someone else's brains is the know how to do it and, and money's a way to fund it. But how do you find people? They need to. You need them to come. Want to be part of your team. Well, your voice helps with that. And if you're just another farm, that's hard too. And then third, I always kind of put the, the politicians and the CEOs, right. Like it's very important for our politicians and our CEOs, the boardrooms, to understand what's actually going on in agriculture and food, not make assumptions from a boardroom. But that's a two way street. We can't expect them to come to the farm if we're not willing to go there and see them either. It's kind of two prong. And then my last piece too is a bit of a call out for our industry if someone's out putting their voice out and doing good things. Keep your goddamn mouth shut if you want to be negative if you're in agriculture. Because that's one of the problems and it's not always agriculture. Don't hold back, don't hold that. I always say we have to.
This podcast is never going to make it because we've kind of. We're talking our minds, that's for sure.
Yeah. About people.
Right. We need, we need positivity and we need. There's enough opposition right now. Canada's I Don't understand it. Canada's at a moment in time where nothing matters more than unity. Nothing. Literally nothing. Like, you know, yes, we can criticise our Prime Minister when we feel like he's done something that we don't agree with. Yes, we should, yes, we can, you know, have an opposition party who's going to say what they believe. But, you know, again, it should be very focused in terms of making sure that it's, it's, it's constructive as opposed to destructive. And if people are doing their best to try and make a difference, try cheerleading for them instead of saying, oh, it wasn't good enough, or oh, what. What are they really trying to do? Or it's. And I just want. I, I am going to go back here because. Not. And I. Not as an ad, but these three farmers never thought that they were going to have a brand that was going to be sold across North America, hopefully soon into, you know, Asia Pacific markets. And their storey would be told, and their storey being told on the back of it, you know, why they're doing this and who they are and what. And why it matters and. And that it says this, you know, from Saskatoon, Canada, with the Canadian flag on the back. This. This is where it started. It started in the ground. It started with them being willing to take a chance on their daughters and fund it, you know, so, yeah, like, try. It's like, maybe it's like planting a new crop or, or trying a new, you know, you know, a new herd. It's. I'm sure it's scary every time you try it, but I look at the
Bogos, I mean, so Zero till was more or less, you know, made In Saskatchewan, about 30 miles from our farm. The Bojo family is seed hawk and Seed Master and I mean, they're used all over the world of which everyone says more or less that the number one kind of regenerative practise is zero till. And it's been done in Western Canada since more or less when I was born. Right.
Yeah.
And those two, they built the shank in a shop.
Yeah.
Lang Bank, Saskatchewan. It's got like 14 people, right? It's unbelievable.
100. I. I visited a company in Thailand that is. Started with a seed farmer that now employs 500, 000 people. And it started as a seed farm. And, and so it honestly is only like. And in this case right now in the world, the way it is, like you just mentioned those guys, that there's. There's others out there that there's. There is. There's there's opportunity in front of us, but we need to grab it.
Okay. I don't want to take too much of your time, and I do appreciate Arlene coming on so heaps. Why don't you. Why don't you hit her with the last three questions that we asked every guest? And we're calling him He's. Yeah.
Sorry.
That's okay. What is Hebes.
Last name's Hebert.
It's okay. Okay.
We met each other in college, actually. We went to university together.
Yeah, we're a little too close.
A little too close. Accounting and finance. Yeah. I did an accounting and finance degree. And then we Both did our CPAs with MNP. And then we both went home. We both quit being accountants to go home farming.
Oh, wow.
Of which then Evan. Evan and I started a consulting company called Maverick Ag All. And we've. We've loved agriculture our whole life, but we. We go way back. Yeah.
A little too far, I guess.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
You have storeys on.
I got storeys.
Yeah.
Our partnership's pretty solid because we know too much, too much about each other to ever split up.
Can't leave if we wanted to.
That's true. All right, what are the three questions?
Yeah, last three questions. I call it Christian selfish questions or curious questions, because I like to write them down and go learn. But first one is what's one or two of the best pieces of advice you think you've got from mentors or partners over the years?
The first one is not to worry a lot less about what other people think of me because it's debilitating and it's useless. It doesn't matter. It really just matters what you think about yourself. And the second one would be that it's a little bit combined. I would say it's more about, you know, people say, like, to dream big, but I think it's more about believing in yourself that you can do what you believe is a big thing to do. And so it's belief in yourself and worrying less about what other people think about you. And those two things, I think, give you confidence and give you the. You get one, one life. And as you get older, you start to realise how important that life is.
I forget which quarterback in the NFL said is, don't listen to criticism from somebody you'd never take advice from.
Right. Exactly. Amen.
Yeah. So I read lots, too, so that I always like to ask what's. What's your. What's your. One of your favourite books of all time and one of your Recent ones.
I haven't been reading a lot lately, I'm going to be honest. Like, I used to read, like I said, a lot. And I. I find I'm getting. My attention span is really challenged with reading these days. I am writing a lot, so I'm writing. I try to write long form as much as I can because it's keeping me centred because there I have struck on. Stuck on not reading as much as I should. So right now I like to read murder mysteries. I'm not reading anything profound, you know, like I'd like to tell you I'm reading something profound. I'm reading some sort of. You know, I think I'm reading a murder mystery. I can't even think of the name of it right now. Michael Connelly. It's a Michael Connolly book. Really. Really, you know, not deep, but sometimes you need something that's not deep to distract you. But favourite book of all time. That's a hard one. You know, I've read a lot of really good business books. A lot of them like whether, you know, I like Malcolm Gladwell's books. I like good, better, best. I like, you know, books like that. I also like autobiographies and. And storeys that people have told about their lives. So whether it's, you know, Michelle Obama's book, which I found really, you know, fascinating. Yeah, there's. I don't. It's hard for me to say one, because I do. I have read a lot. I need to. You meet me. Go. I need to read more. Right now, though, not just murder mysteries.
I got a long list of business and biographies that I love. But there was a unique one. What was it? Maybe show it six months ago, I read. I sent it out to a bunch of people at Christmas. It's called the Fish that Ate the Whale. The Storey of the Banana Man. So it's an immigrant that moved. I heard this one built the fruit company. It's unbelievable. It's crazy how good it is.
I'll have to read it. I'll have to read it. The last businessy book I read was from Anne Applebaum, who's. She's. I think she's with New York Times, I think is where she. She's a journalist, but she's. She's very interested. I think it's the. The Rise of the Autocrats, which is all about kind of what's going on with autocracies around the world. It's a very good book.
Yeah, that's on my list. I downloaded it the other day, so Someone must have said it.
Yeah, yeah.
So then my, my last question is, is for the dreamers. So if you had a magic wand and you could do anything right now to empower agriculture and food to be the best it can be in the future, what would you do?
I think you stumped her. I like this.
I'm trying to, I'm trying to. It's hard to think of one thing because I have too many. I'm running through a list. I would, I would invest heavily in manufacturing processing facilities right now so that we can actually get all levels of business working towards a finished product. Because a lot of our challenge right now is there just isn't enough facilities to be able to deliver what we need to deliver. But like, it's funding, it's, it's, it's manufacturing, it's, it's policy and regulatory. There's a lot just go down the list. It's everything I said.
Well, I think sho. To tie it back for our listeners, what they need to remember is that whether you're, whether you're just farming or you have a consumer package good company, or you're building the next air seeder or you're someone like Ray Hawk that's flipping lids to help make safety on railcars better. When we talk about going from 10 million in revenue to 100, it's because the infrastructure strain gets to be so hard when you want to grow to meet that time of year type of size that your profits just aren't big enough every year to fund the infrastructure investment to hit the growth rate. And so it's really the exact same for a farm. If you expand 50% and the farm you take over had no bins and no equipment and no people, you think of the pain that that creates. Well, what if you're in the manufacturing world and you expand 400%, it's the same. Sure, they might not have to buy the land, but it's the same capital requirements when it comes to building and real estate and people and the marketing side of it. And so that infrastructure strain to go from 10 million to 100, it's crazy. And people have to be crazy enough to do it. So we need to have the capital available to empower them. Because I'm a big believer that if we could just find the top 10,000 entrepreneurs in Canada, specifically 1,000 or so in agriculture, and convince them all to 10x from 10 million on, we'd have a lot less problems in the country.
Yeah, and I think you can convince them to. I think they just need the. The ability to have people believe in them and this infrastructure to be able to do. That's a really good analogy. Back to the farm level, that, you know, really good analogy.
Well, I appreciate it, Arlene, for being so transparent. I hopefully, like you said, hopefully we didn't scare too many away. But again, we. We usually have strictly agriculture on this and honestly, like I said, I didn't realise how agriculture you were. So I appreciate you going back and telling us the storey. And obviously you are passionate about this, which comes across as you speak. So any last, I guess, last remarks before we end this.
This isn't a fire drill. Buy Canadian, support Canadian, grow Canadian. Do everything you can to take the risk in Canada. Keep our money here, keep our resources here, keep our people here. This is a. This is a moment in time for Canada to really shine on the world stage. And I think our leadership is taking us there. But we have to believe in it and believe in ourselves and we have to have confidence that we have what the world needs. And this was a line Prime Minister Carney used at the very beginning of his campaigning, which is, we have what the world needs. And it really has stuck with me because it's very true and we have to believe in it ourselves. So now's the time there. It's not a fire drill. We're. This is. The world is a mess and we're a solution to that mess perfectly well.
I think not only is it an opportunity that we have what the world needs, we're also a place where the world wants to go. So let's import great ideas and great people and let's export finished goods.
Love that. Love that.
Loved it. Guys, thank you.
Immigration is not a bad thing.
Thank you very much. Both.
Yeah, we're both going to get all sorts of people telling us, oh, yeah,
this will be good. We always do.
Yeah.
And that is the truth about ag. Thanks for joining us. The Truth About Ag podcast is a proud member of the Heber Group, which includes Heber Grain Ventures, Maverick Ag and Farmer Coach. We appreciate the support. Lastly, please like, comment, share, subscribe and ring the bell. And if you have questions for a future podcast, please leave in the comments below. Thanks for listening.