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it's time for RealAg Radio on rural radio channel 147 on SiriusXM. RealAg radio and reallgculture.com is your home for insight and analysis of the issues that are impacting your farm business. Let's get real and get connected with RealAg Radio. Welcome to Real Life Radio here on Real Radio 147. SiriusXM. Shaun Haney, your host here on this Wednesday edition of the show. Thanks so much everybody for making Real Life Radio and Rural Radio 147 a big part of your workday and of course, a huge shout out to every listening out there on the RealAg Radio podcast as well. Today we're going to do something a little bit different. I'm away, as I've been talking about. I'm broadcasting from Toronto, Ontario. I'm a bit of a couple days away with some friends, going to some Blue Jay games and enjoying that. So what I thought I would do today is we're not gonna have a whole bunch of interviews like we typically do. What we're gonna do is we're gonna focus in on a discussion that was recently, that recently happened on the Ag Policy Connection podcast that Real Agriculture does in partnership with capi. And on a recent episode they really focused on tackling food waste through a systems approach. And so in this episode of the Ag Policy Connection podcast, they talked to Lori Nichols. She is CEO of Second Harvest. And it really outlines why a national food waste strategy is critical to strengthening Canada's food system. Second Harvest is Canada's largest food rescue organisation, has helped quantify the issue. While progress is being made, 46.5% of food produced for Canadians is still lost or wasted. Let that sink in a little bit here. 46.5% of food produced for Canadians is lost or wasted. So let's. You know what, if you have any feedback on what you hear here today in this interesting discussion with Lori Nichol, you can send me an email. Shaneyaalagriculture.com youm can also call or text the RealAg feedback line 855-776-6147. Here is Tyler McCann and Elise Bigley from CAPI talking to Lori Nickel of Second Harvest.
I'm one of your hosts, Tyler McCann, the managing director of the Canadian Agri Food Policy Institute. I've been working in ag policy and politics for 20 years and I am a policy wonk and I'm not.
But I'm your other host, Elise Bigley, the Director of Strategic Projects at CAPI Canada's Agriculture and food think tank. In this podcast, we'll be talking to leaders across agriculture and food about their big ideas to create generational change in ag policy.
That's right, Elise. We think the time has come for ag policy to catch up with the changes happening on the farms, in processing facilities and across the system that produces food and more and gets it to customers in Canada and around the world. We are excited to work with Real Agriculture to bring some of the big ideas for change to you. Make sure to visit capi's website to subscribe to our mailing list. Follow us on our socials and on YouTube to keep up to date.
And with that, let's get started. So today we're joined by Lori Nickel. Lori is the Chief Executive Officer of Second Harvest, Canada's largest food rescue and perishable food recovery organisation, where she has grown a national food recovery network that redirects surplus food to thousands of communities across the country. She's an international thought leader on food loss and waste and co author of the Avoidable Crisis of Food Waste. Lori has also been recognised as Canada's food hero by the United nations and we're really excited to have her here with us today. So, Lori, welcome to the Ag Policy Connection.
Thank you. What a lovely introduction. Thanks for having me.
So, Lori, let's just jump right in. What's your big idea for us today?
Our big idea is just a food waste strategy to reduce food waste. Like food waste is not incidental, it is a systemic inefficiency that we have built across the entire distribution supply chain model. So how do we fix that? When? In Canada in 2019, as you mentioned, we did some research and it was 58% of all food was lost or wasted that was produced for Canadians. We updated it last year in 2025 and we are doing better. 46.5%. But that's still almost half the food produced for us being wasted. And that's an outrageous amount. It has, you know, economic impact, it has social impacts, it has environmental impacts, and it's just a systems issue that needs to be corrected.
And before we dive deeper into the big idea, thanks for giving us an overview. We want to hear more about the journey that kind of led you to this idea, like what brought you to waste. Can you tell us a bit about your career and experience in working to reduce food waste in address food insecurity in Canada?
Sure. I mean, my storey is, you know, I was low income, single parent and I needed food for my own kids and that's how I Got into the world of food, to be fair. Before that, I was a bartender and a waitress. So I've always kind of been in food, but in this kind of space, it was to feed my own kids and it was in child nutrition specifically. So I worked in student nutrition for many, many years and for Breakfast Clubs of Canada, for breakfast, for learning, for food share, for public health, for everybody. So I have a really good understanding of what's required for kids to succeed and have great adulthood because they have the right nutrients when they're young. And then, to be perfectly frank, it was a lot of travelling and I have my own kids and I'm like, I gotta stop travelling. I need to go to a local organisation. And there was this small one in North York, in Toronto, and it was called Second Harvest. And I heard about it. I didn't really know about it, but I'd heard of it and I got the job, which is funny, because the storey. The truth is, they didn't even have a job. But then I talked to them and like, well, we're going to hire you anyway, because I had a good understanding of food systems and I was a director there for a couple years. But I realised pretty quickly on, this is not a food security problem. Like, we're not addressing food security when we feed people this way. We are in the moment, but that is wage policy. That is an income issue. People need money in their pockets to go grocery shopping and buy the food they need. It's great that we can support people with healthy food. And I'm very much into healthy, nutritious, perishable food. But that when I looked at this organisation, I'm like, this is the wrong lens. This is actually a food waste issue. This is an environmental issue, an outcome that is social justice for sure. Let's make sure that food's being directed to people. But I think as soon as I did that and switched the lens to this is environmental, we have a problem. The problem we're trying to fix is food waste. That shifted everything. And because back then I didn't, like, nobody was looking at it this way. There was, you know, there was this one meeting that I still talk about because I'm like, who do I need to know? And there was this one little conference that Kate had put together from this, from Guelph University, and she's like, well, you need to know Dr. Martin Gooch and you need to know this. So she introduced me to a bunch of people. I'm like, okay, what are we doing about this? But nobody was Talking about it at all, I'm like, well, what. How much waste is there? Like, what's even the problem? And there was no research. And I think that was pretty fascinating to me that, you know, we all make assumptions that somebody. Somebody's doing something or has done it 20 years ago and we can just cheque it out. But I. There wasn't. So that was the impetus of, hey, let's find out what the problem is. Because you can't fix a problem until you know what it is. And that was the start of Second Harvest. Real shift into who we were and why we were.
Can you.
That's really interesting about adjusting the lens. Like, can you kind of dive into what that process looked like, adjusting the lens of an entire organisation, especially when no one's thinking about it that way, like, that seems like an uphill battle.
Well, I mean, I had a couple things going for me. One is, it was a really small organisation at that time, so really nicely in my favour, because the truth is, yeah, there was. It was hard for a mind shift, right, For a couple reasons. One, we're a charity, and charities that support people with food, like, a society can understand that and want to fund that. And so you have to. And, like, we're not. Not doing that. Of course, we're still doing that, but we're also focusing this way. So it was just a lot of change management and not with everybody, to be fair. It was, you know, a handful of people that were like, no. And digging their heels in. I'm like, well, you know, as a leader of a business, you can manage that one or two ways. My goal is always to, like, bring people along, get them there. And for the most part, that happened. But, I mean, that was when there was 28 of us and there was like, I think we were doing 6 million pounds of food and there was like. And Most of those 28 were drivers. And they were like, sure, whatever, Laurie. So today, when we're like, it was $400 million worth of food, we're a much bigger organisation. I think the change management might be a little more difficult. So I think it's just a moment in time where it worked.
Lori, do you think others have caught up to you since then? Have you brought the rest of the space along?
I mean, people talk about it now. Honestly, nobody talked about. It was not something that happened in just general conversations, even in academia. It wasn't like a big pillar for them or anything. So industry. Not really, actually, to be fair, not, I would say, not almost not at all. And so for sure, we've seen a huge shift in behaviour at household and in industry. Like, wanting to make the change doesn't mean that the change is happening, but there's at least awareness. And awareness is, you know, step one, know the problem, build in solutions. And this is a big, you know, this is a big, big idea. But it's not a unique idea like almost every other, you know, G7. I think every other G7 country and others already have food waste strategies and then they tie in other pieces of policy inside of it. So we are, we're behind as Canada and I think we need to catch up and we could be real leaders
here and is one of the reasons why we're behind in the past. And I suppose even today in some places this is seen as kind of a social justice issue, a charity issue, when others think about it in more of that environmental or economic lens. Kind of the direction that you've gone with this.
I think so. I mean, I don't know for sure, to be honest. We're just a different country and some things are easier to manage in a smaller country with a smaller footprint. Part of that is just the enormousness of us and the small population, I always think has something to do with it. But also, you know, there hasn't been an appetite at a legislative level. And even when we look at food waste across the country, we're like, not even talking federally. Even if you look in Ontario and you're looking at organics, there's no harmonisation of anything. So we have built in inefficiencies by not connecting to each other. Right. To make sure that there is, like one plan that harmonises. This is what we do. So, like at Second Harvest, we were talking about a compost workshop that we were building in for corporations that had asked for it. I'm like, well, that's going to be kind of difficult because what I'm told to put in my compost in Mississaug is different than what I'm told to put an intro on it, which is different than whether you have one or not. So even that just a lack of harmonisation on organic material is a problem.
We're going to continue this conversation with Lori Nichol of Second Harvest here on Real Lag Radio right after this quick break.
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We're in part one of our Future of Canola series brought to you by Bayer Crop Science Canada. Today on RealAg Radio, we're listening to a recent episode of the Ag Policy Connection podcast. It's a podcast that's brought to you by Real Agriculture.com as well as Cappy host Tyler McCann and Elise Bigley. And they're talking to Lori Nickel, she's the CEO of Second Harvest. Let's continue the conversation.
Right. And I guess one of the things. So you talked about how there kind of wasn't an appetite or an interest. I think that there's this perception that, you know, companies always try and drive down kind of waste and loss. Right. That it's in their kind of incentive to reduce and kind of find higher value and do things with different products, kind of what's that reality look like? And again, what's that journey been like talking to, to people to try and raise awareness of this?
Well, I mean, it's many things, but again, I'd say less. Let's not talk about diversion so much and let's talk about prevention. So I think industry is very good at diversion. I shouldn't say very good. Trying to be very good at diversion. So depending on where you are, how big your organisation is, they are like looking at ways to upcycle and treat second harvest. Awesome. Like, we have great partners across the country to divert, but where are we looking at prevention? So we work with enviro stewards. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Bruce Taylor, but he does like case studies and goes into businesses and says this is an area where you could really reduce your waste. And they're just frontline staff already know. Right. Like, they're just small tweaks that can happen on a line that suddenly your food waste is dropped. And I think there was. There's a Campbell Soup Storey case study where it was. The line was one type of product, so maybe it was tomato soup and then during the shift change it became potato soup or whatever, and the tomatoes kept dropping on the line and they would just throw them away. Well, that's an easy fix. Right? Don't throw them away. Put them over here and use them for. And so I think they'd save. And I know it's a podcast, but I'm like, try not to quote me on this. But I feel it was like $250,000 a year on those kind of small tweaks of prevention. So I think where we get stuck, everyone gets stuck. Not we second harvest, but the general we is prevention. It's hard to articulate prevention and what the data is without actually doing it right. To recognise what the cost saving, what the economic impact is, what the environmental impact is. So we're kind of working with the problem after it happens versus let's not have the problem in the first place.
Yeah.
And I think that
goes into the next question that I have nicely, is, can you just for some level setting, like, what is the difference between food loss and food waste? I find that that often gets used interchangeably. And I'm sure you hear that quite a bit. But just. Yeah. How do we articulate the problem? How do we know which problem?
You don't.
Okay.
In my opinion, you don't. It's food waste, I think. And so different countries are all actually moving. I sit on Canadian Standards Association, I'm the Canadian delegate to ISO. And so I'm looking at what's happening and globally, it looks like we're all moving to food waste because it is. It used to mean one thing and I didn't want to go down there because it doesn't matter. Right. Like, it's all food waste. I think when you're looking at definitions, what we should be really focused on is avoidable and unavoidable. Peace, man. You're always going to have Some unavoidable. But if it's avoidable, how are we managing it in Canada? It's $58 billion of avoidable food waste that's happening here. Avoid, we could be eating it. Nobody grows food or manufactures food or sells food to throw it away or buys food. So there's a systemic issue inefficiency across this entire supply chain. How do we make this stop? That's going to happen when we have an actual strategy.
And how much kind of, when you think about that world today that exists in Canada and that kind of very big number that you've got. And sometimes big numbers are hard for people to wrap their heads around, right? Because it's when you break that down and you think about what who needs to be able to do things differently to avoid. What does this actually look like in practise? What kind of a strategy is a big thing? What are the components of the strategy that drive that number down?
So I'm going to give you one example and then I think, okay, actually I'm going to start with this. Any strategy has to understand what the problem is. So the strategy has to measure. It just has to measure. Everybody has to measure. And in the same way. And the beauty of that is this is the final year of a food waste management system that ISO is building with, you know, globally. So hopefully that will address something in industry because they'll just tie to their food safety standard in big industry. Measure this, set a target and then monitor it. Are you hitting the target? Like that is step one. It's simple, measure it and see if it's working. But 23% of all of our affordable food waste is attributed to a best before date. So that's pretty significant. And we, you know why? We know actually, to be fair, we don't know. We know people that know know that best before date is about product quality. It's got nothing to do with safety. So public, general public assumes it does for the most part. And so people are just throwing away food. And when I think about food waste and what Second Harvest does, we're really looking at affordability as well. Right. Like our job is to make sure people get fed. And so when I see low income people throwing away food because they don't understand what a best before date actually means, it makes me very angry. And it's of no fault of their own. Right. Like there could be lots of barriers to this. Also when you're struggling to just provide food, you're, you're just in this kind of frantic kind of Mode. I remember it was like terrifying. So you're not thinking about this. You're like, okay, well the government said they had to put it on so I must throw it away. That's not even true. Right? That's. It's not required. Best before date is not required on food that has a shelf life of 90 days or more. But there is no understanding of that. Now the good news is everybody seems very interested in fixing that at a government level, at an industry level, you know, at our level. How do we improve this system so that people are. I mean it just. Oh my gosh, you know how many times I get this picture of Salt that is 250 million years old but has about reporting on it of tomorrow. It's like every time someone sees it, they immediately send it to me, like, yeah, this is ridiculous. So, so that problem and then managing at an industry level and a consumer understanding level
you mentioned, everyone's interested in fixing the best before dates. Is that something that's been like a long term desire to fix or have you seen kind of a shift?
I think there is a shift for sure. Like Second Harvest is leading something with a bunch of retailers who are all very invested and yes, we should do it and manufacturers and so. And some of them don't even have them. So we're seeing that the challenge is like with every big shift there are, you have to cheque out. Okay, what are the unintended consequences? Which is, you know, then like it's a consumer awareness campaign as well as just taking them off. You can't just take something away and not have people understand it. What is the capital investment cost? You know, we just did relabeling new, new labelling was required for industry and so they're kind of feeling a little bit of heartburn from that last one. So there's, there's that. But no there I am so impressed by the number and the like. These are big global businesses that are all. And I also think in Canada it's because we don't have them. But there's getting a push globally from other industries where they don't have this. Right. Like they have other countries where they have best before means quality, sell by means safety. So it's very clear if it says this, you know, don't have it, that is like two year, three year date. Even if it's good 50 years, whatever. Any, any grid is still better.
But, but Laurie, how much of that is that? Like it gets to be a consumer issue as well, right? Because I think when we all think about going to the grocery store. We all look for these dates that are there, so I know it's easy to say we should get rid of them, but I would have assumed that consumers would. Would push back against that 100%.
There has to be a consumer education piece to any of this. Again, a big right. And it's difficult because we live in 2026, where content is everywhere. It's not like, I know I'm very old, but back when there was 12 channels, it was really easy to educate population. So there's like, there has to be a bunch of money tied to that. But you're absolutely right. It's a consumer campaign in addition to everything else. I mean, that's the biggest pushback is how does general population understand this? Well, they misunderstand it now, so we got to try.
Today we're listening to the most recent episode of the Ag Policy Connection podcast, brought to you by Real Agriculture. And Cappy, Tyler and Elise are talking to Lori Nichols. She's the CEO of Second Harvest. And we'll continue the conversation after this quick break.
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And welcome back to RealAg Radio here on this Wednesday we're continuing our conversation from the Ag Policy Connection podcast is brought to you by real Agriculture and CAPI, Elise Begley and Tyler McCann. From CAPI, talking to Second Harvest CEO Lori Nicol. Let's continue.
Do we put. Do we put too much pressure on consumers in all of this, Laurie? On food waste, I mean, again, on their understanding of these issues. We often think of this, I think, from a broader agriculture world, right? Kind of. We've got this idea we need to have public trust with consumers. But I guess I always am a little bit sceptical because, like, a consumer just wants to go to the grocery store and buy food, right? Like, I don't think the average consumer really thinks too much about where the food came from or how it was made.
That's a fact. That's a fact. Yes, I guess. But we created this, right? Like, we created this problem, so now we have to fix it. And it. And it just is what it is. For sure. We're putting a lot on the consumer, but also, like, we're Canada, right? We have a lot of newcomers in Canada where they don't have these industry standards. So we've also kind of set them up to fail, right? Like, well, where I came from, they didn't have this, they had this kind. But we only have this one date. And so they just assume it means this. And so that's not fair either because we're actually changing that perception to be negative about best before dates. I don't know why I'm using my hand like this, but. So the answer to that is, yes, we do put a fair bit of pressure on the consumer, but it is a consumer that's always going to push back, right? So if you don't educate them, they're going to push back to retail and to food service and to whoever and say no. But if industry is all aligned and we're all aligned, it's a problem for everybody. It's not like one industry or one different organisation. Everybody's aligned and has the same message and has that campaign in store as well as media everywhere, you know, it doesn't have to be so disjointed. If it's a really clean campaign and it's like, up for a couple years, people shift, right? You can change, your brain shifts.
I want to jump back to the conversation of it's easier to educate consumers when there's 12 channels versus now. And just, I mean, we think about that a lot at Capian in the egg sector Tyler mentioned, like reaching the consumer. What does that mean and how do we approach that? Do you, do you see kind of us in this digital age as a maybe an opportunity to shape how we educate consumers? I know you mentioned there's many channels, so that makes it more difficult to navigate one education. But just wondering your thoughts on that. Like, how do you approach that in this.
I think it depends on what you're educating them. I think when you're talking about SB4 dates, you know where they all are. They're all at the grocery store. So it doesn't have to be a digital campaign. It's nice to have one like for online shopping. So put it on Instacart, put it on those pieces as well. But everybody actually goes to those places. So if you have a consistent campaign throughout all retail or the majority of retail, then they will learn. We will. It's okay to buy this because it means this. So I think general education, I think is very difficult because there's never a place where everybody all is, honestly, except for grocery stores. They all have to go. Or your doctor's office. There's just a very few places for
the grocery store you'll go more often, hopefully.
Or do you have a captured audience that you know most people are going to go to and it's not that many places.
Wow. Yeah. No, that's interesting. When thinking about your, your big idea for national food waste strategy. Why. Why is it needed now more than ever?
I think now is a great time because we know that Canada is working on a food insecurity strategy. A food security. Oh, my gosh, I said insecurity. Sorry. That's part of my job. A food security strategy for Canada. And this is a really important pillar that impacts many of those pieces. So it doesn't have to be. I mean, it does have to be its own strategy, but it can be within a broader strategy because we're working on affordability, we're working on strengthening our domestic supply chains. Food waste hits everything. So this is a great moment, a great moment to put it in something that's already being created and will be adopted.
But Laurie, I mean, sorry, you talked about the shift earlier from environmental to. Or kind of from social to environmental earlier. I think in the food security strategy, we're seeing a shift from social to economic. Or at least that's what we. We kind of. We hear about where the government's going, what does that shift look like when we, when you think about this too, and kind of the idea of a kind of a food security, like a supply security strategy rather than a food insecurity strategy.
Sorry, and I, and I misspoke when I said food insecurity. It's just food security. It's a supply chain strategy. Food waste is not. I mean, it has an impact on social justice, but it's not. That's not the issue. I say look at it as an economic issue because it is right. There is so much economic loss in landfill, in labour costs and water. Like there's just an economic tie in and logistics and supply chain that this is where it fits to make a stronger food security for Canada. You can't not include a food waste strategy to have a food insecurity strategy separate. That is a very different strategy. That's a poverty reduction strategy. That's when we look at odsp, that's when we look at wage policy. Those are two separate and distinct policies and structures. They can talk to each other, but they're very different, in my opinion.
Yeah.
So when thinking about this strategy, and I know you mentioned the food security strategy and potentially having a food waste strategy as like a pillar within the strategy.
Who.
Who should be at the table?
Well, who shouldn't be at the table really might be easier. I mean, obviously AG has to be added environments. PMO's office. Like innovation has to be in at it, Transportation has to be in on it. Like, honestly, I think often it's a better question who shouldn't be there? Because this impacts pretty much every ministry to some degree. Like the depth and level they need to be involved will vary 100%. But I think everybody's got a part to play and can inform it to some degree.
And does this need to be a government kind of strategy or what's the role? Again, you've talked a lot about this being kind of a supply chain processing issue. Where does that kind of the private sector food processors fit in this?
Yeah, I don't think you can have. I don't think we should ever have a government policy that doesn't have industry involved in it anyway. Right. Like, you can't just make policies and assume that they're going to be taken up by industry when they don't have a voice. So industry has to be part of this or it won't succeed. And I do think has a role to play to lead it. Right. Like, let's make sure all the players at the table. There are some regulatory things that have to happen 100%. But let's define what those are with being properly informed and having, like, really strong representation from industry who are saying, like, yes, you can implement this, but these are the unintended consequences if you do that. So it's just. It's not one or the other. It has to be joint.
And Laurie, don't. Don't want to put you in a position where you're telling tales at a school, but it is worth kind of acknowledging that you sat around the Food Policy Council that I think was supposed to do some of that. I think if you look at kind of what I mean, the cfa, I think, was calling for this to be created like 15 years ago to do something like that. I think it was released with kind of a relatively big fanfare. The Food Policy Council was announced and then it seems like we didn't kind of see, at least externally, kind of what came out of that or kind of where that went. Like, what are some lessons that you. Maybe the right better way for me to ask the question is what are some lessons that you learned from your experience in that council that we should think about doing differently this time as we think about food security, food waste and where this goes next?
I think one of the, like, I think intent is always great. I think the intent was absolutely wonderful. Don't get me wrong. I think the people at the table were not the right people necessarily. Some of them were, some of them weren't. And there was a real lack of industry at that table. So that would be my big highlight is again, like, you can't do something to someone, you have to do it with them to get buy in. And so I think that was. That was a mission. And I'm not sure how invested the government as a whole was in it because it kind of just stopped. And so it exists. It doesn't exist. And I'm like, I'm not really sure. Like, I'm not going to point fingers. It's not tails out of school. I don't think it's a secret that, you know, there was a lot of really smart people doing some really great work and doing the best we could, and we did have some really great insights and we put together a strategy for child nutrition. So I would say actually there was a really great outcome because we did get a federally funded. The feds finally came in to support child nutrition, which is absolutely normal in every other country in the world, so that it took us as long as fascinatingly bad to me. But the other thing we did come out with was a food waste strategy. So that exists. It was built informed by industry in a way, like industry talks to me and talks to other people, but not informed by industry. Like industry was literally big. Industry was sitting at the table and I think that was a mess.
You're listening to RealAg Radio. Be back right after this quick break.
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What's the one piece of advice that you give to the Real Agriculture audience that is interested in trying out a biostimulant? It is very important to remember that not all biostimulant products are the same
and not all of them are going
to be doing the same thing.
So you need to choose carefully about
exactly what you want from this product.
Loren, what would your advice be?
You know, I think biostimulants, they're a great fit. They do have an opportunity in broadacre crops. You know, they're not a silver bullet.
They're not going to replace your fertiliser or your fungicide or your herbicides, but
they can be a nice, they can be integrated to be a nice addition.
You go to Acadian planthealth-na.com. Welcome back to RealAg Radio. We are just today playing the interview from the recent Ag Policy Connection podcast with the CEO of Second Harvest, Laurie Nicol. Let's continue.
You know, I think we think about that a lot in the work that we do and that making sure that when we're bringing people together to come up with solutions, you've got to have the right people with the right skin in the game. But you also have kind of a diversity set of voices that are there. One of the things that I guess I've kind of really trying to wrestle with A bit with this, Lori, is that, I mean, again, let's go back to that really big number that you've got, $52 billion of food loss in ways like 58. So $58 billion, you would think that that would be a really big issue for the people that are effectively losing that money, that are seeing that. Like, that should, if you needed a compelling reason to do something, kind of $50 billion in waste should be a pretty compelling reason. How come that's not enough to get action on this? You're the wrong person to ask as it is.
I am the wrong person to ask, right? Like, there's always going to be waste, period. Like that's a fact. Right. We're going to have, you know, bumper crops that are going to happen every year. We're going to, like, that's just going to happen. You're going to grow more or produce more because things happen, right? Like, and we're living in a world of right now real environmental issues where we're having wildfires and floods and droughts and all that. So you now more than ever, there actually is going to be more production to accommodate for those hits. But why is it happening? I think it is happening to some degree. I just don't. Because we know it is happening. So I should start with that. It was 58, it's 46.5. We know it is happening. So peace. Great. Could it be happening faster and more? I think it could be. But like, every big idea, it takes time, right? Like moving the ship takes a bit of time and understanding the problem and then understanding, you know, what is there. There's going to be a capital upfront cost, everything. Because there always is when you're making these kind of shifts. So how are we incentivizing people to do that? How are we regulating? And I don't, I'm not a fan of regulation. So I'm not like, say regulate, regulate. I'm not just like. But how do we ensure that industry is doing this? And if the economic piece isn't driving them yet, and I think it is to some degree, but not enough, then how do we educate them that, you know, what needs to be done?
Is it just thinking about why there, you know, isn't that that number isn't compelling for change or why it isn't? Do you think it's where the food is wasted? That's the issue. Like at production and processing, it's kind of built into the status quo. Business like this, we're going to lose that. And does there need to be some kind of incentive, like what needs to change within that? Because it seems like it's pretty entrenched in that.
It is.
Yeah.
What, like. And you're right, it happens further down the supply chain. Further up the supply chain anyway. Producer, manufacturer. Yeah, it happens more because the value of the food is less than retail. Right. So retail, you're seeing that value as increased. It's less over there. So how big is the hit when you're a producer or a manufacturer versus if you're food service or retail? So I think you see more change in those areas. Like retail, I think, is actually doing a very good job of reducing their waste, according to the latest research. So there. And food service has always been kind of doing a good job because that's where you see the price crunch. So I think part of it is that kind of peace. Also, you know, to be fair, farmers are the best people on the planet. So when they overproduce, they're always giving it away. Right. Like, they don't want to. I shouldn't say they don't want to give it away. They want to give it away. Probably not as much. But there's also a different mentality. Right. Often where it is just a good human being. Straight out.
Yeah. And one thing I want to flag. I know you talked about it. You mentioned retailers doing a good job of reducing their waste. And her Second Reverse has an app that I. I was just wondering if you can kind of explain a little bit about what that app is and what it does and the. The efforts that are behind it.
Yeah, so. So I should have said foods. You know, food. Oh, my God. Second Harvest started like tiny little North York business that was very small. And we have grown and scaled nationally, and we've done that through innovation, a. Understanding the research, but also building out tech. Like, we have a product team here as well, and we're experts at logistics. Like, we just are. We have our own fleet, we have our own warehouse. We have them across the country with three pl, we just understand this. Like, you call us, we'll make sure your food is gone. The tech piece has been really instrumental in connecting. Right. Like, it's really just a connector. So it does not make sense. We were sending a truck to a hotel downtown Toronto. I'm like, what? What are you sending a truck there? That doesn't make any sense to pick up a case of whatever. How do we connect these two dots? So in 2017, we built something called the Second Harvest Food Rescue App, and it is fantastic. CRM so there's so much data in this thing, like it's beloved but it has been rolled out to like all the Sobeys banners, all the Loblaws banners. It's in metros and it's being rolled out more there like. So retail really has picked it up as a food service. It's a. It's really good because then you can get a charity that is local to pick up the food, like Second Harvest. We make sure that the charity has been audited, that we know that they're managing food safe, that they have the right equipment or the right capacity to like, you won't ever see refrigerated product in an organisation that doesn't have a refrigerator. They just won't even see it on the app. So we're that trusted source that connects those two. So last year it was. We did over $400 million worth of food through, through our app and through our logistics. But a lot of that is just, it's connecting, right? It's connecting and understanding the GHGs. So you will see how many meals industry loves it because they can see the meals that they've supported. They can roll up to their head office so they can see where the hotspots are. Right. Like the idea is, yes, it's great, it feeds people, but ultimately the idea for me is find your hotspots, prevent it from happening. Why is there so much? Because it's by category. Why is there so much protein happening in this one store? Well, that's, you know, if it's a new place, fine. They're trying to figure out their inventory. But if it's not, then that will help a business identify where's your hotspot so you can fix it. So ultimately it supports millions, over 6 million people living in Canada last year alone. But the goal is how do you reduce your waste?
So, Laurie, one of the things that we struggle with I think from time to time is, you know, things happen. Anyways, we talk about one of the things in Canada and I think one of the. We've talked about this in the digital ag context recently where like these things are happening almost kind of in spite of governments and in spite of the policy framework. We like to ask the question on the podcast, what happens if we don't change or if we don't do your idea? You know, I've just heard you talk about the great things that you're doing with your app and kind of the work and the progress that you're already making. How do you kind of think through Kind of what happens without a national food waste strategy or. And kind of what actually changes if we get that?
I think accountability, I think that's the important piece for this, right? Like people have to be accountable for what they're doing and if they can't be accountable themselves, then someone has to hold them to a standard. That's it. We'll continue to keep doing what we do at Second Harvest, as will, you know, industry that is being innovative on these practises that will continue. So I do believe that food will continue to reduce in some areas, but not necessarily all. And so having some kind of an accountability framework is always a good thing, not, not a negative thing. It could be like you got to provide people with the incentives, if it's money or whatever it is, to help them get there. Because again, I go back to this. Nobody wants to waste food, Nobody grows food to waste it, nobody does it to waste it. So I think part of it is a lack of knowledge. So if we had a standard, then you would have that education piece going out there. Part of it is I don't know what to do maybe, or I don't have the money to do it. So how do we help implement and educate and provide the resources that industry needs to do it? So I'm very much a cared approach. Let's help people but also be accountable for it.
Kind of leads into. I was wondering how, as you're implementing this, how do you deal with the barriers to change? How do you deal with that pushback of accountability framework or maybe some of the necessary regulations, like what's the, the approach we need to take there to ensure this is successful?
Again, it's awareness, it's advocacy, it's talking to everybody, getting everybody on the same page. Don't have a bunch of ideas, have one with maybe a couple things coming down, like there's no silver bullet campo the ocean. Just like start, start. If you start, things tend to grow. So it's always that first step.
And does that mean we don't need to have kind of, kind of the perfect strategy? You just want to see progress in action.
Exactly. There is what. There's no such thing as the perfect anything. So let's not even try for that. Good is good enough and a start is good enough. The acknowledgment and a start is good enough because far smarter people will be born after us and they will also, you know, continue on this journey to make sure it is eradicated.
We're going to finish up the discussion with Laurie Nicholas of second harvest right after this quick break.
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Today we've been following the latest episode of the Eggplant Policy Connection podcast, brought to you by Real Agriculture and Cappy. Let's finish up the discussion with Second Harvest CEO Lori Nicol.
But Laurie, I'm curious. It seems like when you think back to kind of your storey, the work that you're doing, kind of how you're living and driving change here, you're doing things right. That seems to kind of be embodied in what you're doing. But often, especially when we think about the big ideas that we need and the generational change we need, kind of the hard part is just getting people to do things at time. And I kind of sometimes wonder if it's a Canadian cultural issue that we don't have enough people that are, I think we like to let kind of perfect be the enemy of the good. Almost as like a kind of a Canadian thing and unless we can all agree on what it is, but there's this different kind of, I think, breed of people like you that are just, you know, let's just do something and if it works, great and if it doesn't, let's do something else. I'm curious what you think about that and how you deal with kind of people that don't think the same way.
I don't. I don't think about it. Like, I mean, I have conversations about it and I talk to people. I'm like, any decision is a good decision as long as you make it pretty quickly. Like, right or wrong, not making a decision is the worst thing you can do. Right. Plan, you keep planning, you're never going to get anything done. So the best plans fail. And that's okay. Don't spend a tonne of time on it. It's like, it just. Life happens. So really don't spend a tonne of time thinking about that at all. Because I don't have time. I have to do.
You're too busy doing. So it's either. There's either a right decision or a decision. Learn from the only two options and take the risk.
Like, I am 100%. Take the risk. It's okay, right? Like, we're gonna fail. All of us are gonna fail from time to time. And that's how we become better. That's how we learn like that. I don't know why. Failure is a negative. Failure is great. And the sooner you fail, the better. I love that. Yeah.
But again, like, I just really think that that's something we struggle with lately. I mean, there's on almost kind of everything we work on, Lori, that, you know, there is this. This opposition and this change. And it's part of the reason why we want to have this conversations like this is to kind of put more of these ideas out there, to kind of encourage. Maybe not encourage failure. Right. But encourage a willingness to think about kind of big ideas for change.
And I think you're looking at leadership. And I honestly think in our Canadian government, we have different leadership right now, which is. It's efficient, it's moved fast. And I don't think there's a fear of failure. I think make the mistake and move on. And I like that. Right. I think that we're going to make mistakes. I think as long as we all know and we're okay with it and we don't point fingers, man, and be accountable for your own stuff. Learn from it. I think we're actually in a good place. But that's a leadership. And leadership does not mean boss of whatever. Leadership is at every level of every business, everywhere. Right. I was a coordinator. I was a leader. Like, it's just leadership is a mindset. And that mindset is decisive, in my opinion. And it also has integrity. Integrity is very important.
And so, Laurie, I want to Ask you about one other mindset issue that I think you'll have a different perspective on. You know, I think there's this debate today about making we work in the agriculture space. Most of the time, we talk to farmers. There's kind of the sense that we need to make agriculture issues, food issues to make them kind of more appealing and more interesting and more engaging. As much as we have a food supply chain, really kind of, I often break it down into kind of the food production part of the chain and then kind of the food consumption part of the chain. And those two things meet at the grocery store, but not really anywhere else. I'm curious as to how you think about the difference between agriculture and food and how you think about food production in the work that you do, which, again, I think before we get into this, I would have thought was more on the kind of the food consumption, kind of the other end of the chain that doesn't necessarily meet with the agriculture end of the chain very often. How do you think about that? And do you think that we should stop talking about agriculture and just talk about food instead?
I think that in any industry, they have their own language and the common language is food that everybody can understand. So it's not like. Can't say it's one or the other. I just think there has to be more acknowledgment of food because people understand that. And I think we have to assume most people aren't thinking about it anyway. Right. Like, we're all in our own world. Think about, so what is the easiest message to whoever you need to get the message to. So it matters. And often that that's food. People understand it like agriculture understands agriculture. So, like, again, it's always, for me, it's like, make the message appropriate to the audience.
Sorry, where do you. Do you see yourself in the food space, in the agriculture space where it works?
I think it's semantics, to be honest. Like, I see myself as in both spaces and all space, like it's all food.
Right?
Yeah.
Again, it's a little thing, but I think it's a really big thing. And I think it's something that we need to talk about more.
I think depending on the space you're in, it matters.
Right.
So for sure, you should, Tyler. 100% you should. My space. I don't think anybody cares.
Well, thank you so much, Lori. And we have one final question for you, and it's if you had one thing you want people to take away from our conversation today and the work that you Do? What would that be?
Well, it would be two things, right? And it's my, it's our vision. It's no waste, no hunger, right? If you can do something about your own waste, it's first step is you make change in your own life. And if you're hungry or you feel for people that are hungry, recognise it, right? And do what you can, when you can. This is like we're not in a great place right now in this country with, you know, it's shocking to me the amount of people that can't access the food that they need, they can't buy the food that they need terrifies me. Especially at the same time, the juxtaposition of like, we're wasting all this avoidable food is just makes no sense. So just think about your own daily lives, right? Like just every once in a while think about it. Because the more like, the more you think about it and try not to ignore it. I'm always surprised about people that say, and I've had this happen a lot people 10 times around and say, nobody's hungry. Like what? Like because they're just. Their blinders are on. So try to take your blinders off every once in a while, recognising that, you know, manage your mental health because you take them off too long, it's kind of terrifying, but yeah, that's it. Be kind.
Yeah, I appreciate that, Laurie and Laurie really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us again. This is a different conversation than what we often have. I think you bring a fresh, different, pretty compelling perspective and hope people take away from it and hope that we see some progress on this, on this big idea in this national food security strategy that's coming.
Oh, we will, sir. Not hopefully it will happen. That's the mindset.
That's the mindset.
Thanks, Laurie.
Good note to end on. Thank you, Laurie.
Thank you guys.
The Ag Policy Connection podcast is brought to you by Real Agriculture and Capi. Highly, highly encourage you become a subscriber of it by doing that on Apple podcast or Spotify or
[email protected] if you have any feedback, send me an email. Shaneyaalagriculture.com and thanks so much for getting real and getting connected with Real agriculture.