Guests
- Jim McGovernDemocratic congressmember from Massachusetts.
We speak with Democratic Congressmember Jim McGovern of Massachusetts, a longtime critic of U.S. foreign policy, in a wide-ranging conversation about Iran, Cuba, ending military funding for Israel and more. Last week, McGovern joined the entire Democratic caucus and four Republicans to pass a resolution calling on President Trump to withdraw U.S. forces from hostilities against Iran.
“It’s just like Iraq,” says McGovern. “We’re getting involved in a quagmire here, an endless war.”
Transcript
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman.
The U.S. has paused bombing Iran for a third straight night after senior Trump officials reportedly warned the president about dwindling munition stockpiles. In response, Iran said it would pause retaliatory strikes against U.S. bases across the Middle East.
Last week, the entire Democratic House caucus and four Republicans voted to pass a resolution calling on Trump to withdraw U.S. forces from hostilities against Iran. We’re joined now by one of those Democrats, Congressman Jim McGovern of Massachusetts. He’s been a vocal critic of Trump’s foreign policy, from the war in Iran to the administration’s targeting of Cuba. He’s served in Congress since 1997, is the ranking member of the House Rules Committee.
You have described, Congressmember — and welcome to Democracy Now!
REP. JIM McGOVERN: Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN: — Iran as “Iraq 2.0.” Explain.
REP. JIM McGOVERN: Well, it’s just like Iraq. We’re getting involved in a quagmire here, an endless war, you know, a war based on arrogance and bad intelligence. And the bottom line is, this war in Iran is not only risky; it’s illegal, and it’s costly — tens of billions of dollars going into this war in which there is no way for us to succeed or accomplish any of the goals that Donald Trump said he wanted to accomplish.
But I’m really particularly frustrated because the House of Representatives, and Congress, in general, has ceded its power and its authority to the executive branch. We should be — we should be voting on whether to authorize a war in Iran. I don’t think a majority in the House or Senate would vote to do that, but we should be voting on these things. We shouldn’t just — we shouldn’t just give that power to the president. And the speaker of the House, you know, is to blame here.
Look, you know, you just reported that Trump has kind of put a pause on bombing. Let’s hope that that remains. But with him, you never know. I mean, in a week or two, I mean, he could launch an intensified attack. And if that is the case, the speaker of the House ought to call Congress back into a special session, because we’re in recess now, and we ought to debate it. There ought to be oversight, and we ought to vote on it. The speaker should stand up to the president and stand for the powers of the legislative branch, and stop being a coward.
AMY GOODMAN: So, what would it mean if a war powers resolution was passed by the House and the Senate? What exactly would that force President Trump to do?
REP. JIM McGOVERN: Well, if we were in sync, it would ultimately end funding for the war. I mean, that is how you end wars. We have to stop the funding, because this president will do whatever the hell he wants to do, and he doesn’t care about the law.
So, you know, right now these votes are largely symbolic, but I think it shows, you know, that — where the majority of Congress stands on this stuff. Congress stands with the American people. Only 28% of the American people think this war is worth it. Everybody else is against it. I mean, and people are horrified by the fact that the United States of America, we’re dropping bombs on elementary schools in Iran, when they’d rather have that money spent on building elementary schools here in the United States. I mean, we’re committing human rights crimes in the conduct of this war, as well.
AMY GOODMAN: So, talk about — last week, we saw Hegseth go before the Senate and talk about why the Pentagon needs tens of billions of dollars more in dealing with Iran, and how could the Democrats desert the soldiers. Very interesting, by the way, about the count on soldiers dead, because of outcry. I mean, the last four soldiers, they were taken off the list of the dead, because they died after President Trump declared ceasefire. They’ve been added back, as well as, apparently, something like 140 soldiers who have been hurt, adding to something like well over 600 injured and 18 killed. That’s U.S. Iran, we don’t know the numbers.
REP. JIM McGOVERN: Yeah, the lack of candor is concerning in and of itself. But the fact that the secretary of defense goes before the Senate and says, “Give me tens of billions of dollars more for this war,” when they still have tens of billions of dollars in unspent money, tells you that they’re thinking of a war that’s going to go on for quite some time. Look, I mean, our defense budget now is going to be like $1.6 trillion when all is — when all is put together. I mean, that’s like unbelievable. I mean, I think Dr. Strangelove would be impressed with that number.
And, you know, again, I’m not a — I’m a big critic of this administration, but even by their standards, listening to the secretary of defense speak before the Senate, I mean, he sounded like a lunatic. It sounded like there needed to be an intervention. He didn’t answer the questions. And, you know, the questions that most people had is, you know: What is the strategy? What is the clearly defined mission? What’s the goal? How do we get out of this? You know, when does this end? He had no idea. And he tried to make it a referendum on whether you support the troops or not. Supporting the troops means not putting them in harm’s way to begin with. I mean, it’s irresponsible for us to be deploying troops in a situation like this, when the president and secretary of defense don’t have a plan at all.
AMY GOODMAN: So, the question is: Where do U.S. taxpayers — where their money goes? You are co-chair of the Hunger Caucus in the House of Representatives. If you can talk about the level of hunger in the United States, with the Trump administration cutting food assistance, driving up child hunger?
REP. JIM McGOVERN: Well, hunger is getting worse in this country. Over 50 million — five-zero — over 50 million Americans are hungry or food insecure in the United States of America, the richest country in the history of the world. It’s unconscionable. And as a member of Congress, I’m ashamed of that fact.
Trump and the Republicans passed this big ugly bill a little bit — a year ago, that that went on to put new restrictions in place for SNAP recipients, more work requirements, and there’s a $200 billion cut to the program that’s going to hit at the end of next year. Already, because of the paperwork and the work requirements, millions and millions of more people are without the benefit. Millions of children in this country have lost their food benefit.
And it just seems to me that there’s something fundamentally wrong when we have money for bombs, but we don’t have money to make sure people in this country get fed. And every dollar we invest in food and nutritious — and nutrition actually, you know, saves us money in a whole bunch of other areas. Kids learn better if they’re not hungry when they go to school. People are less likely to get chronic diseases if they have access to good nutrition and food. But to cut this benefit — by the way, the worst of it’s going to hit next year — you know, in this country, that we’re tolerating that level of hunger is astounding to me.
AMY GOODMAN: I also want to ask you about the divide in the Democratic Party. Former Congressmember Rahm Emanuel, who served as President Obama’s chief of staff, was mayor of Chicago, published an op-ed in The Wall Street Journal last week headlined “The 'Bernie Bros' Could Spoil Democrats’ Midterms.” He criticizes the role of DSA, Democratic Socialists of America. He wrote, “The DSA and others are saddling the Democratic Party with nominees whose wildly unpopular positions will protect Republicans from having to pay the price of Donald Trump’s corruption and economic incompetence.” Bernie Sanders responded on Face the Nation.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: You have an establishment, like Rahm Emanuel, who are dependent on billionaire campaign contributors and want to maintain the status quo. Then you have a progressive movement, which, by the way, what is getting these guys nervous is we are winning all over this country. It’s not only Mamdani in New York City. It’s in New Jersey. It’s in Ohio. It’s in Colorado. People are sick and tired of the Rahm Emanuels and the Democratic establishment and the Republican establishment. … The American people are tired of a rigged economy, a corrupt campaign finance system. They want real change. They don’t want Rahm Emanuel and the establishment maintaining the status quo.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you respond, Congressmember McGovern?
REP. JIM McGOVERN: Yeah, I mean, I don’t think we should be arguing amongst ourselves about the decisions that voters are making. I mean, we need to respect the voters. Part of the reason why, you know, you see some of these candidates getting elected who the establishment doesn’t really like very much is because people are frustrated that we’re not fighting hard enough, that we’re not standing up for bold solutions. People don’t want to manage hunger; they want to end it. You know, people don’t want to, you know, get another tax credit on healthcare; they want us to make sure they can afford their healthcare and that it is available for everybody. And people don’t want us to manage wars around the world; they want us to bring them to an end. So, I mean, I think we do our party great harm when we start to have this kind of infighting. I mean, I trust the people. And for me, I tell people all the time that whoever wins the Democratic nomination, you know, in a particular race in my state, I’m going to support them.
AMY GOODMAN: So, you have been in Congress for almost 30 years. You have championed democracy in Latin America. You were, as what, a staffer for Congressman Moakley —
REP. JIM McGOVERN: Moakley, yeah, yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: — investigating the six Jesuit priests.
REP. JIM McGOVERN: Who were murdered in El Salvador in 1989.
AMY GOODMAN: And found?
REP. JIM McGOVERN: And we found that they were murdered by the Salvadoran armed forces, who were trained and armed by the United States government.
AMY GOODMAN: So, you’ve been a major critic —
REP. JIM McGOVERN: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: — of U.S. policy in Latin America. I want to get your response to — well, you shared your response on the floor of the House last week about a new Red Scare —
REP. JIM McGOVERN: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: — the State Department accusing the Cuban government of waging a sustained campaign of subversion against the United States, claiming Cuba is backing a number of groups, including the National Lawyers Guild, CodePink, Pastors for Peace, National Network on Cuba. And they’ve subpoenaed a number of organizations, including The People’s Forum, down the road from here, BreakThrough News and others. And I’m wondering your response to what is going on here.
REP. JIM McGOVERN: I mean, I feel like the ghost of Joe McCarthy is — you know, is appearing in Washington, D.C., right now. I mean, what this administration is doing by targeting its critics and members of the free press is what you would see in an authoritarian country. I mean, it is a drift toward fascism, if you will.
And quite frankly, our policy toward Cuba is a disaster. It’s an embarrassment. We should lift the embargo. We should have normal relations with the Cuban people. We should let the Cuban people decide their future. It shouldn’t be decided by Marco Rubio or people in Washington. And right now our intensified sanctions and embargo is resulting in starvation on the Cuban island, people not being able to get healthcare, people without electricity. I mean, it is a human rights crime, and it needs to stop. And so, I reject what the administration is doing, and I think our policy toward Cuba is a disaster.
AMY GOODMAN: I also want to ask you about the case of Beto Coral, a Colombian asylum seeker who was living in Arizona, detained at his home by U.S. immigration agents in June, after he filed criminal charges against the Colombian far-right presidential candidate Abelardo de la Espriella, who became president. He was deported to Colombia on July 16th. Shortly after he was detained, you wrote online, “I’m very troubled by allegations of coordination between American officials and Colombian political actors in this arrest — that would amount to our government aiding and abetting transnational repression.” Explain.
REP. JIM McGOVERN: I mean, there are foreign governments that — you know, that target citizens from their country who come to the United States who are critics of their government. China does it. Iran did it. Pakistan, India does it. And so do a lot of countries in Central America. And the fact that we are going to — we are sending this guy back to Colombia, Beto back to Colombia, where there’s a new president, a right-wing president, who may end up jailing him or, you know, God knows what else, is, again, us being part of transnational repression. We are guilty of the things that we’re criticizing other countries of doing.
Look at, I think my view — I co-chair the Human Rights Commission in Congress. I think if the United States stands for anything, we need to stand out loud and foursquare for human rights. That means not sending people back to dangerous situations, whether it’s in Colombia or Haiti or China or anywhere else.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is coming to Washington. He hasn’t met with Trump personally in Washington, D.C., since the U.S. and Israel started bombing Iran at the end of February, that first day —
REP. JIM McGOVERN: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: — the U.S. bombing that girls’ school, the primary school in Minab. Here in New York, where you’re visiting, the mayor investigated whether he could arrest Netanyahu because of the arrest warrant of the International Criminal Court. He concluded he couldn’t, but raised that issue. And you have the majority of the voting Democratic caucus for the first time voting to end military aid, except the Iron Dome, to Israel, over $3 billion. Can you talk about what President Trump, who has been an ally of Netanyahu, what you want to see happen?
REP. JIM McGOVERN: Well, what I want to see happen and what will happen are probably two different things. But President Trump, if he were truly representing the ideals of this country, would tell Benjamin Netanyahu to stop the war crimes. He is guilty of war crimes. You know, I mean, I met with the Augusta Victoria Hospital staff online a couple of — a week ago, and, I mean, young children in Gaza who have cancer are not able to get the treatment they need, you know, less than an hour away, because Netanyahu’s government is blocking that.
But there’s no question in my mind that Netanyahu is guilty of war crimes. He should be held accountable. And we should not be sending one more penny to him to be able to conduct those crimes. I mean, it is that simple. If we care about human rights, we have to be consistent.
AMY GOODMAN: Jim McGovern, Democratic congressmember from Massachusetts for almost 30 years.
Coming up, as Israeli settlers torch two mosques amidst a deadly surge in violence on the West Bank, and there are over 70 arrests on the West Bank alone this weekend, we’ll speak to the Palestinian journalist Mariam Barghouti. She recently testified before the U.N. Security Council. Back in 20 seconds.
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AMY GOODMAN: “Tama,” “Greed,” by the Palestinian oud player and musician Huda Asfour, performing in our Democracy Now! studio.
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